tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6574858940069385599.post5259152061289669624..comments2023-04-17T21:27:49.092+08:00Comments on Jesus <i>is</i> Jehovah!: Re: Jesus is not Jehovah ... such a thing is unthinkableStephen E. Joneshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16183223752386599799noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6574858940069385599.post-6366797735979151252008-12-18T10:42:00.000+09:002008-12-18T10:42:00.000+09:00Signtopia>am sure that there may well be a few ...Signtopia<BR/><BR/>>am sure that there may well be a few people that are cyberbullies ...<BR/><BR/>Why would JWs, OF ALL PEOPLE, "fear ... cyberbullies" who might recognise them online if they used their real name?<BR/><BR/>JWs actually go around IN PERSON from door to door, often in their own local areas, and so they can be, and no doubt occasionally ARE, bullied IN REAL LIFE.<BR/><BR/>So what most JWs REALLY "fear" if they were to use their real name online is their OWN REAL-LIFE BULLIES, their kingdom hall's elders and behind them the utimate BULLY, the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society, i.e. the "evil slave" in Mt 24:48 who "beat[s] his fellow slaves"!<BR/><BR/>Stephen E. JonesStephen E. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16183223752386599799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6574858940069385599.post-6010429300668363452008-12-18T10:00:00.000+09:002008-12-18T10:00:00.000+09:00Voice of Reason commented: "There are those that d...Voice of Reason commented: "There are those that do cyberbullying of Witnesses and call the Kingdom Halls and harrass the Witnesses, thinking that they will get them in trouble with the elders but the elders don't want to hear things from apostates and don't care about that."<BR/><BR/>I am sure that there may well be a few people that are cyberbullies, but I seriously doubt that it is to the extent that it happens on a daily basis. More likely once or twice a year. If those "cyberbullies" are indeed "apostates" as you imply, I would have to ask the question.....WHY would a former JW call a Hall knowing full well that nobody is there except at certain times. Personally, I have called Halls myself and presented very specific questions for anyone that would answer the phone. Oddly, the JWs online would try to negate whatever those that answered the phone would say by suggesting that whoever answered the phone "might be an apostate"...or "unbaptised".....I have heard all of the excuses. I would bet that the phone calls that you refer to are regarding people that actually know each other.Signtopiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16340903513009304087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6574858940069385599.post-27026401839044429592008-12-18T08:27:00.000+09:002008-12-18T08:27:00.000+09:00Voice of ReasonThanks for your comment.>I would...Voice of Reason<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your comment.<BR/><BR/>>I would disagree here. Witnesses have more fear of antiWitness and other opposers causing harm. <BR/><BR/>What is there REALLY to "fear? I am a Christian and have posted under my real name on the Internet for ~14 years and I don't "fear" any "harm" and nor has there been any "harm," in any REAL sense, done to me. <BR/><BR/>>There are those that do cyberbullying of Witnesses <BR/><BR/>Even if that were true, so what? Most of us who post on contentious issues on the Internet have experienced SOME degree of "cyberbullying" (even those who post under pseudonyms), but that is not REAL bullying. <BR/><BR/>And why is Pam Tolliver, a WOMAN, not afraid of such "cyberbullying"?<BR/><BR/>>and call the Kingdom Halls and harrass the Witnesses, <BR/><BR/>How CAN they do that with only their name and not their address? It would only be if someone locally knew the name and that the person was a JW. But because JWs tend to be isolated socially, that would be VERY rare for a non-JW to do it. More likely it would be a local JW who noticed it and reported it to their elders.<BR/><BR/>>thinking that they will get them in trouble with the elders <BR/><BR/>Why would they even THINK that if it was not true that the WT disapproves of JWs reading anti-WT material on the Internet?<BR/><BR/>>but the elders don't want to hear things from apostates and don't care about that.<BR/><BR/>You contradict your point that JW's "fear" being harassed in this way, because if the elders "don't care about that" then it would not REALLY be harassment and JWs would all KNOW that.<BR/><BR/>I note that YOU, "Voice of Reason," don't post under your real name but hide under a cloak of anonymity!<BR/><BR/>I invite you to: 1) start posting under your real name (as Pam Tolliver does); and 2) disclose to the elders in your kingdom hall that you read anti-WT information on the Internet and see what their response is.<BR/><BR/>Stephen E. JonesStephen E. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16183223752386599799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6574858940069385599.post-71772547104176529542008-12-18T02:01:00.000+09:002008-12-18T02:01:00.000+09:00"If that is her real name, it is to her credit tha..."If that is her real name, it is to her credit that she uses it. Most JWs hide behind a cloak of anonymity, presumably because the Watchtower does not approve of JWs reading anti-JW evidence."<BR/><BR/>I would disagree here. Witnesses have more fear of antiWitness and other opposers causing harm. There are those that do cyberbullying of Witnesses and call the Kingdom Halls and harrass the Witnesses, thinking that they will get them in trouble with the elders but the elders don't want to hear things from apostates and don't care about that.Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01115946270655365230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6574858940069385599.post-66433114662470654682008-12-17T09:50:00.000+09:002008-12-17T09:50:00.000+09:00SigntopiaApologies but I mistakenly deleted your c...Signtopia<BR/><BR/>Apologies but I mistakenly deleted your comment. I have reproduced it below.<BR/><BR/>>Seems as if Pam Tolliver has vanished. <BR/><BR/>A Google search on "Pam Tolliver" reveals there are comments by her defending JWism on <A HREF="http://melangerie.blogspot.com/2008/11/thou-shalt-not-bear-false-witness.html" REL="nofollow">another blog dated 27 November 2008</A>. <BR/><BR/>If that is her real name, it is to her credit that she uses it. Most JWs hide behind a cloak of anonymity, presumably because the Watchtower does not approve of JWs reading anti-JW evidence.<BR/><BR/>>Have you heard from her at all since you probably overloaded her with the goods? <BR/><BR/>I assume that "overloaded her with the goods" is meant to be a compliment, not a criticism? <BR/><BR/>No, I have not heard from Pam Tolliver, either before or since her comment of 12 August 2008, that I am responding to in a series of posts.<BR/><BR/>I am still to complete that series with a response to her claim that: "There is no literal place of fiery torture for lost souls."<BR/><BR/>Maybe she will respond then to what she regards are the main points I made? In which case I will probaly counter-respond in another post or series of posts.<BR/><BR/>Stephen E. JonesStephen E. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16183223752386599799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6574858940069385599.post-11279642250191778482008-11-26T11:44:00.000+09:002008-11-26T11:44:00.000+09:00EdwardThanks for your comment.>you can not take...Edward<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your comment.<BR/><BR/>>you can not take titles from different eras and contexts and apply them singularly.<BR/><BR/>You would have to cite at least one, and preferably several, Bible verses which clearly stated that, rather than just give your mere unsubstantiated opinion. <BR/><BR/>Absent that, it is reasonable to assume that the same names and titles applied to Yahweh in the OT, when they are applied to Jesus in the NT, have the same meaning.<BR/><BR/>For example, the Jews realised, that when Jesus called Himself "I AM" in Jn 8:58, he was claiming to be the "I AM" of Isa 43:10; Dt 32:39; Ex 3:13-14 (and Cetnar could have added Isa 41:4 & 46:4), i.e. Yahweh:<BR/><BR/>"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.<BR/><BR/>which is why the Jews "picked up stones to stone him" because, as Jn 10:31-33 states, they regarded Jesus as committing "blasphemy" because He was "claim[ing] to be God."<BR/><BR/>"Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"<BR/>"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."<BR/><BR/>And unless Jesus WAS God, i.e. Yahweh in human flesh, the Jews would have been RIGHT!<BR/><BR/>Stephen E. JonesStephen E. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16183223752386599799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6574858940069385599.post-91082564019400172382008-11-26T11:02:00.000+09:002008-11-26T11:02:00.000+09:00I wrote to Bill Cetnar in the late 80s about that ...I wrote to Bill Cetnar in the late 80s about that pie chart and how wrong it is. Maybe I ought to post those letters here.<BR/><BR/>That is wrong because you can not take titles from different eras and contexts and apply them singularly.<BR/><BR/>It is that simple.<BR/><BR/>It is true that the Bible is an organizational book and people can not do things alone.<BR/><BR/>Jesus said to go and make disciples. Those disciples would make more disciples, etc and on and on. Would those disciples just be on their own or would they be a group organized in crongregations?Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01115946270655365230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6574858940069385599.post-75446071050366863572008-11-26T09:19:00.000+09:002008-11-26T09:19:00.000+09:00Salty>God is eternal and everywhere all the tim...Salty<BR/><BR/>>God is eternal and everywhere all the time. I don't need a building or a group of deacons to worship him or read his word.<BR/><BR/>This reminds me of what I read the other day about "the Lone Ranger Christian mentality": <BR/><BR/>"I have been troubled for a long time by the Lone Ranger Christian mentality of so many in the evangelical community. This is the attitude that `all I need is Jesus and the Bible, and since the church is so full of problems and hypocrites, I am perfectly fine without it. I can take my Bible to the top of the local mountain on Sunday morning, have my evangelical Quiet Time, and be fully equipped for the work of the kingdom, free from the pestiferous church people who just get in my way.' One problem with this attitude is that most of these Lone Rangers rarely get to the top of the mountain (we live in the Blue Ridge mountains of Virginia) on Sunday morning anyway. Instead they sleep in, read the paper, and sip their coffee. They miss out on the Word of God coming through preaching, which Paul suggests has a special power beyond what comes simply by reading the Bible on our own (Rom. 10:8, 17). That Word has the added advantage of coming through another person, and so it often challenges our own presumptions and prejudices. The Lone Rangers also avoid the threat of being challenged by fellow believers at church, whether in Sunday school lessons or simply over coffee. They forego the comfort and encouragement we often need when going through crises. When I think of how Christ has grown me over the years, nearly every enlargement of my vision of God has been through hearing a sermon, or studying a book with other believers, or being challenged or comforted by others in the church. I know from experience that when I have been absent from fellowship for a while, usually because of travel or other necessity, I have been more tempted to stray off the narrow path. This has reminded me of why we see no Lone Rangers in the New Testament, and why instead all the believers we see there are active in local churches." (McDermott, G., "The Keys of the Kingdom: An Evangelical Response," in Millet R. & McDermott, G.R., "Claiming Christ: A Mormon-Evangelical Debate," Brazos Press: Grand Rapids MI, 2007, pp.152-153).<BR/><BR/>>But thank you for your thoughtful posts. <BR/><BR/>Thank you for your thanks.<BR/><BR/>>Clearly you love God's word.<BR/><BR/>Yes, I do, including the command in God's word:<BR/><BR/>Hebrews 10:25: "Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day [of the Lord] approaching."<BR/><BR/>Stephen E. JonesStephen E. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16183223752386599799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6574858940069385599.post-76858753895401632222008-11-26T08:48:00.000+09:002008-11-26T08:48:00.000+09:00God is eternal and everywhere all the time. I don...God is eternal and everywhere all the time. I don't need a building or a group of deacons to worship him or read his word.<BR/>But thank you for your thoughtful posts. Clearly you love God's word.Saltyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17274988128910956003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6574858940069385599.post-92220531295337770262008-09-18T22:38:00.000+08:002008-09-18T22:38:00.000+08:00Voice of Reason>If Jesus is Jehovah, how can yo...Voice of Reason<BR/><BR/>>If Jesus is Jehovah, how can you be saved?<BR/>><BR/>>Remember that the high priest is not the God that the sacrifice is offered to.<BR/><BR/>As per my response to your similar comment under my post "<A HREF="http://creationevolutiondesign.blogspot.com/2007_09_01_archive.html" REL="nofollow">Jesus <I>is</I> Jehovah!</A>" on my <A HREF="http://creationevolutiondesign.blogspot.com/" REL="nofollow">CreationEvolutionDesign</A> blog (before I started this blog):<BR/><BR/>Your fallacy is thinking that if Jesus is Jehovah then the Father cannot be Jehovah.<BR/><BR/>But see point 6 of "<A HREF="http://jesusisyhwh.blogspot.com/2008/07/main-reasons-why-jehovahs-witnessism-is.html" REL="nofollow">Main reasons why Jehovah's Witnessism is false</A>" on my <A HREF="http://jesusisyhwh.blogspot.com/" REL="nofollow">Jesus <I>is</I> Jehovah!</A> blog:<BR/><BR/>6. <A HREF="http://jesusisyhwh.blogspot.com/2008/07/main-reasons-why-jehovahs-witnessism-is.html#6" REL="nofollow">Each person of the Trinity is Jehovah</A>: Father (Isa 63:16), Son (Jn 8:58 NASB) and Holy Spirit (2Cor 3:17). In particular, Jesus is Jehovah: "I AM" (Jn 8:58 NASB. Gk. ego eimi, "I am" - no "he"). But Jehovah is "I AM" (Gk. <BR/>ego eimi in LXX of Ex 3:14; Isa 41:4; 43:10; 46:4; 52:6; Dt 32:39).<BR><BR>So the short answer is that when Jesus offered Himself as a once for all sacrifice for sin to God through the Holy Spirit (<A HREF="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Heb%207:27;%209:14;&version=31;" REL="nofollow">Heb 7:27; 9:14</A>), it was Jehovah the Son, offering Himself to Jehovah the Father through Jehovah the Holy Spirit.<BR/><BR/>Stephen E. JonesStephen E. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16183223752386599799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6574858940069385599.post-82999061105647774762008-09-18T06:22:00.000+08:002008-09-18T06:22:00.000+08:00If Jesus is Jehovah, how can you be saved?Remember...If Jesus is Jehovah, how can you be saved?<BR/><BR/>Remember that the high priest is not the God that the sacrifice is offered to.Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01115946270655365230noreply@blogger.com