tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6574858940069385599.post6923649975650207805..comments2023-04-17T21:27:49.092+08:00Comments on Jesus <i>is</i> Jehovah!: Re: `Tartarus' is a Greek name for a type of prison that the demons were relegated to #2Stephen E. Joneshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16183223752386599799noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6574858940069385599.post-81859944329035888642012-03-15T08:11:09.441+08:002012-03-15T08:11:09.441+08:00Laura Lee
>Tartarus is where the fallen angels...Laura Lee<br /><br />>Tartarus is where the fallen angels are bound in chains. Tartarus is where humans who have died go, and are bound in chains.<br /><br />Disagree. The Bible does not say that. All it says is that just as the fallen angels were "cast into ... <i>Tartarus</i> ... to be kept until the judgment" so "the unrighteous [will be kept] under punishment until the day of judgment":<br /><br /><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Pet%202:2-4,9&version=ESV" rel="nofollow">2Pet 2:2-4,9</a> (ESV) "2 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep. 4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell [margin: Greek <i>Tartarus</i>] and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; ... 9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,"<br /><br />And in <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude%201:6&version=ESV" rel="nofollow">Jude 1:6</a> only the fallen angels are mentioned as being kept in the same "chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment ":<br /><br />"And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—"<br /><br />So the Bible does not say that unrighteous humans will be kept in the same intermediate place, <i>Tartarus</i>, awaiting the Judgment, where the unrighteous angels are.<br /><br />>The devils bound in Tartarus are the humans bound in Tartarus and vice versa. The damned who are in hell on the day Satan is cast into hell -- are all the devil and his angels who have been incarnated and born as men. They have lived, died, and thus are bound. It is given to a man once to die and then the Judgment.<br /><br />Disagree that "The devils bound in Tartarus are the humans bound in Tartarus and vice versa." The fallen angels and unrighteous humans are each different in the above two passages.<br /><br />>I am preparing my next article and was looking for a brief synopsis on the topic. I'll "put it together" for the saints showing that the humans and those fallen angels are the same population. <br /><br />Don't bother sending it to me, because you are <i>wrong</i> and I don't want to be a party to spreading your false teaching.<br /><br />>... before of old ordained to condemnation... wandering stars... fallen angels.<br /><br />>Jude is not speaking either of two separate "population groups". Jude is speaking of one population group: the pre-existent fallen angels who become men -- are wandering stars -- and upon death as men are chained in Tartarus. In fact, their death as men is "how" they are chained -- for it is given unto a man once to die and then the Judgment.<br /><br />No. Both Jude and Peter <i>are</i> speaking of two separate groups: "angels [that] ... sinned" and "the unrighteous" human "false teachers". Take care that you yourself may not be one of the latter!<br /><br>Stephen E. Jones<br>-------------------------------<br><b>Comments</b> are moderated. Those I consider off-topic, offensive or sub-standard will not appear. Each individual will usually be allowed only one comment under each post. Since I no longer debate, any response by me will usually be only once to each individual under each post.Stephen E. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16183223752386599799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6574858940069385599.post-79858502252232109482012-03-14T05:41:14.204+08:002012-03-14T05:41:14.204+08:00Tartarus is where the fallen angels are bound in c...Tartarus is where the fallen angels are bound in chains. Tartarus is where humans who have died go, and are bound in chains.<br /><br />The devils bound in Tartarus are the humans bound in Tartarus and vice versa. The damned who are in hell on the day Satan is cast into hell -- are all the devil and his angels who have been incarnated and born as men. They have lived, died, and thus are bound. It is given to a man once to die and then the Judgment.<br /><br />I am preparing my next article and was looking for a brief synopsis on the topic. I'll "put it together" for the saints showing that the humans and those fallen angels are the same population. <br /><br />... before of old ordained to condemnation... wandering stars... fallen angels.<br /><br />Jude is not speaking either of two separate "population groups". Jude is speaking of one population group: the pre-existent fallen angels who become men -- are wandering stars -- and upon death as men are chained in Tartarus. In fact, their death as men is "how" they are chained -- for it is given unto a man once to die and then the Judgment.Laura Leehttp://birthofanation.org/2012/03/08/the-story-of-man-theology-the-story-of-jesus-and-us-in-him-the-story-of-heaven-and-hell-and-angels-on-earth/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6574858940069385599.post-39429907317970409802008-12-10T07:19:00.000+09:002008-12-10T07:19:00.000+09:00Diana>Thanks for this blog. Thanks for your com...Diana<BR/><BR/>>Thanks for this blog. <BR/><BR/>Thanks for your comment.<BR/><BR/>>I have recently started meeting with JWs - since the beginning of September, we are working through the What does the Bible really teach book, and are currently looking at the resurrection.<BR/><BR/>JW's don't believe in the resurrection, i.e. the SAME body raised from death (as Lazarus was). They believe that the body is ANNIHILATED and then God RE-CREATES the body from His memory (WDTBRT, p.71). But then it is not YOU, but a COPY (or CLONE) of you.<BR/><BR/>Ask the JWs: 1) was Lazarus RESURRECTED? 2) was he RE-CREATED? If yes to the first and no to the second, then 3) so is resurrection and re-creation the SAME THING? <BR/><BR/>You could repeat the questions using Jesus instead of Lazarus.<BR/><BR/>Also, ask them if science could store a blueprint of ALL the information about EVERY molecule in their bodies in a computer, such that they could be killed them and their bodies reduced to dust. And then using the blueprint information, with 100% reliability, totally RE-CREATE their bodies from scratch: 1) would it be THEM? 2) would they allow themselves to be killed and RE-CREATED? If not, why not?<BR/><BR/>You might lead up to it with an example of their wedding ring. If they lost it, but it could be exactly RE-CREATED by the same jeweller who made it originally, from the same gold bar, would it be THEIR original wedding ring.<BR/><BR/>There is an obvious CONTRADICTION between p.70 p.71 of WDTBRT. On p.70 they talk of Lazarus just "sleeping in death." But then on p.71 it says resurrection is where God r"re-create[s] life." Which is it?<BR/><BR/>>I wonder sometimes whether I am wasting my time as they are very sure of their beliefs. <BR/><BR/>They are not "sure", just WELL-TRAINED in narrow areas. If the Watchtower came out with `new light' on one of their `sure beliefs' they would change them instantly to the NEW `sure belief', or be disfellowshipped. <BR/><BR/>>However, each time I have the opportunity to witness to my belief that Jesus is Jehovah I am sure that is achieving something!<BR/><BR/>It is planting seeds that God can grow (1 Cor 3:6).<BR/><BR/>All the former JW experts say that to get anywhere with JWs you should put your points in the form of questions. That is because JWs are programmed to resist statements but answer questions.<BR/><BR/>>I have just been looking at your daily blog where you have all the verses supporting why Jesus is Jehovah. Is it OK to print this out and pass on to the JWs (assuming they will read something written by an 'apostate'!). <BR/><BR/>Feel free to copy those verses or print the whole page and pass it on. I am not an `apostate' (in their definition), since I have never been a JW. So JWs are allowed to read it.<BR/><BR/>>This is exactly the sort of thing I have been sharing, but having it all together written down in one place is a fantastic resource.<BR/><BR/>Great!<BR/><BR/>>God bless you,<BR/><BR/>And you.<BR/><BR/>Let me know how you get on.<BR/><BR/>Stephen E. JonesStephen E. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16183223752386599799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6574858940069385599.post-75553159678319736362008-12-09T23:06:00.000+09:002008-12-09T23:06:00.000+09:00Hi StephenThanks for this blog. I have recently st...Hi Stephen<BR/><BR/>Thanks for this blog. I have recently started meeting with JWs - since the beginning of September, we are working through the What does the Bible really teach book, and are currently looking at the resurrection.<BR/><BR/>I wonder sometimes whether I am wasting my time as they are very sure of their beliefs. However, each time I have the opportunity to witness to my belief that Jesus is Jehovah I am sure that is achieving something!<BR/><BR/>I have just been looking at your daily blog where you have all the verses supporting why Jesus is Jehovah. Is it OK to print this out and pass on to the JWs (assuming they will read something written by an 'apostate'!). This is exactly the sort of thing I have been sharing, but having it all together written down in one place is a fantastic resource.<BR/><BR/>God bless you,<BR/>Diana.Diana Lovegrovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14849754637056012241noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6574858940069385599.post-83870362998487983882008-11-17T11:17:00.000+09:002008-11-17T11:17:00.000+09:00George>I love this blog too! WOW, I am so glad ...George<BR/><BR/>>I love this blog too! WOW, I am so glad you are doing the things you are doing. <BR/><BR/>Thanks again.<BR/><BR/>>Jesus is indeed Jehovah... <BR/><BR/>Yes. My reading this morning in my ongoing study of all verses in the NT that indicate Jesus is Jehovah ("<A HREF="http://members.iinet.net.au/~sejones/jesusisj.html" REL="nofollow">Jesus <I>is</I> Jehovah</A>") was <A HREF="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%202:21;&version=8;" REL="nofollow">Acts 2:21</A>, where the Apostle Peter preaching to Jews in Jerusalem (who therefore already believed in Jehovah), applied Joel's prophecy in <A HREF="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joel%202:32;&version=8;" REL="nofollow">Joel 2:32</A> that, "whosoever shall call on the name of Jehovah shall be delivered," to <I>Jesus</I> (as does the Apostle Paul in <A HREF="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom%2010:13;&version=8;" REL="nofollow">Rom 10:13</A>).<BR/><BR/>>the JWs beliefs can be broken down like a stick wall, or blown over like a house of cards. <BR/><BR/>Agreed. One of my aims here on this blog is to dismantle the Watchtower, brick-by-brick, providing JWs with sound evidence (e.g. from leading NT Greek lexicons, the WT's own writings, etc), that the WT is "deceiving" them, it itself "being deceived" (<A HREF="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Tim%203:13;&version=9;" REL="nofollow">2Tim 3:13</A> KJV); or "misleading and being misled" as the WT's own <A HREF="http://www.watchtower.org/bible/2ti/chapter_003.htm#bk13" REL="nofollow">NWT</A> puts it.<BR/><BR/>>I really appreciate what you are doing on your blogs! May Christ be lifted up!<BR/><BR/>Thanks again for your encouraging feedback.<BR/><BR/>Stephen E. JonesStephen E. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16183223752386599799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6574858940069385599.post-13217324247796978302008-11-17T10:32:00.000+09:002008-11-17T10:32:00.000+09:00I love this blog too! WOW, I am so glad you are do...I love this blog too! WOW, I am so glad you are doing the things you are doing. Jesus is indeed Jehovah... the JWs beliefs can be broken down like a stick wall, or blown over like a house of cards. I really appreciate what you are doing on your blogs! May Christ be lifted up!<BR/><BR/>-g-George Weishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07632714882132276803noreply@blogger.com