Re: `Tartarus' is a Greek name for a type of prison that the demons were relegated to #1

Pam

Continuing from Re: `Gehenna' is a symbol for complete destruction #2, of my response to your comment under my

[Above (click to enlarge): The Greek god Sisyphus, who was sentenced by Zeus to Tartarus, where he must endlessly roll a large rock up a mountainside, which when he reached the top, the rock rolled back down again, and again, and again ...!: Wikipedia]

post "Main reasons why Jehovah's Witnessism is false."

Yours and the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society's words are bold to distinguish them from my response. My emphasis is red below

>and "Tartarus" is a Greek name for a type of prison that the demons were relegated to when they disobeyed God in the days of Noah....it is a situation of spiritual darkness for the demons.

As a Christian, I have no problem with the above. But I do have a problem what it does not say, but implies, that Tartarus: 1) is only for "demons," not for the souls of the wicked human dead; and 2) it is only a condition of "spiritual darkness," not a place of conscious punishment.

The Greek word tartarosas is only found in the Bible in 2Pet 2:4, where it is translated Tartarus in the NIV margin:

"For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell [Tartarus], putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;"

Here are quotes of what the Watchtower Society has claimed about Tartarus, since at least 1943 (click on the hyperlink for the full quote):

1. "Tartarus of the Bible is not a place but a condition":

"The angels that so sinned... Jehovah God. ... debased them to the state or condition symbolically called `Tartarus'. ... in their state of Tartarean degradation they await the execution of that sentence with Satan the Devil at the judgment day. The inspired revelation concerning this says: `... For if God spared not angels when they sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.' (2 Peter 2: 3, 4 ...) `And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.'- Jude 6." (WB&TS, 1943, "The Truth Shall Make You Free," pp.131-132).

"... `God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tartarus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment.' (2 Peter 2:4) ... Jude 6 ... adds: `The angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place ... There is no Scriptural basis for concluding that these disobedient angels are in a place like the mythological Tartarus .... `throwing into Tartarus' need not be viewed as suggesting the existence of an actual place, but as suggesting a condition." (WB&TS, 1974, "Is This Life All There Is?," pp.84-85).

"The apostle Peter continues ...if God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tartarus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment ... Jehovah knows how ... to reserve unrighteous people for the day of judgment to be cut off ....'-2 Peter 2:3-10. ... angels ...who later became unfaithful were ...`thrown into Tartarus,' that is, debased to the lowest degree. ... the disobedient angels find themselves in a condition comparable to `pits of dense darkness,' awaiting executional judgment ..." (WB&TS, 1979, "Choosing the Best Way of Life," pp.152-153).

"TARTARUS ... A prisonlike, abased condition into which God cast disobedient angels in Noah's day. ... Tartarus is a condition rather than a particular location ... Tartarus of the Bible is not a place but a condition ..." (WB&TS, 1988, "Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 2, pp.1068-1069).

"Instead, the Bible says that `God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tartarus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment.'-2 Peter 2:4. These wicked angels were not thrown into a literal place called Tartarus. Rather, Tartarus, which is mistranslated `hell' in some Bibles, refers to the abased or fallen condition of these angels. They were cut off from the spiritual light of God's organization, and they have only everlasting destruction awaiting them. (James 2:19; Jude 6)" (WB&TS, 1989, "You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth," pp.94-95).

The Society's fallacy here is that of false alternative: there is no reason why Tartarus could not be both a place and a condition. And note what the very Bible verses quoted by the Watchtower say: "cast them down," "left their own habitation," "committed them to pits of darkness," "forsook their own proper dwelling place," "throwing them into Tartarus," "delivered them to pits." This is clearly the language of place. In fact the Watchtower's own New World Translation of Jude 6 says: "forsook their own proper dwelling place" meaning they are now in an another "dwelling place," which the parallel passage 2Pet 2:4 says is "Tar´ta•rus"!

Moreover, since angels are not omnipresent, they must be in a place somewhere, and in the case of the wicked angels, that place, the Bible tells us, is Tartarus.

2. The "Scriptural Tartarus is ... not for the detention of human souls" :

"2 Peter 2:4 - `Tar'ta•rus' ... derived from the Greek verb tar•ta•ro'o) ... denotes an underground prison ... below Ha'des ... confined in it were not human souls, but the lesser gods... The inspired Scriptures do not consign any human souls to tar'ta•ros ..." (WB&TS, 1950, "New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures," pp.785-786).

"... the word tar'ta•ros denotes an underground prison ... below Hades ... in it were not human souls, but the lesser gods ... tar'ta•ros was reputed to be a place for confining, not human souls, but Titan spirits ... The inspired Scriptures do not consign any human souls to tar'ta•ros but consign there only spirit creatures." (WB&TS, 1984, New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures: With References, p.1575).

"Tartarus ....in pre-Christian heathen mythologies. ... In it were imprisoned the lesser gods ... the mythological Tartarus was presented not as a place for humans ... the Scriptural Tartarus is clearly not for the detention of human souls ...." (WB&TS, 1988, Ibid, pp.1068-1069).

But this is another example of the Watchtower's fallacious argument that a word can only ever mean one thing. That is, if originally "Tartarus ....in pre-Christian heathen mythologies" meant a place in which "were imprisoned the lesser gods," that does not mean that Tartarus could not later come to mean a place in which were also imprisoned wicked human souls. Which in fact it did (see part #2).

Indeed, what would be the point of Peter's parallel between "God ... punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tar´ta•rus ... to be reserved for judgment" and "Jehovah knows how to ... reserve unrighteous people for the day of judgment" (2Pet 2:1, 4, 9), if the "angels that sinned" and "unrighteous people" were not both thrown "into Tar´ta•rus ... to be reserved for judgment"?

3. Tartarus is not "a place of eternal conscious torment":

"The sinner angels and the dead human souls are not associated together in tar'ta•ros as a place of eternal conscious torment of creatures." (WB&TS, 1950, Ibid., pp.785-786).

"The sinful angels and the dead human souls are not associated together in tar'ta•ros as a place of eternal conscious torment of creatures." (WB&TS, 1984, Ibid., p.1575).

These are the only two places (which are effectively one) that I can find where the Watchtower denies that Tartarus is a place of conscious torment. Agreed that Tartarus is not "eternal," since it is a place (and a state) of being "reserved for judgment." That is, it is an Intermediate State of the unrighteous dead while they awaiting final judgment after which they will be consigned to the Final State, Hell, which is "eternal."

Whether the wicked angels are "associated" together with the wicked human dead, the Bible does not say. But the clear impression is that the wicked angels are, as in an earthly prison, "conscious" but restrained by "bonds" (Jude 6), which would be unnecessary if the prisoners were unconscious. However, to be conscious but restrained in "bonds" for thousands, if not millions of years, would be a form of "torment," especially if they know they are "reserved for judgment."

4. The "Tartarus of the Bible ... is not the same as this Tartarus of Greek mythology":

"There is no Scriptural basis for concluding that these disobedient angels are in a place like the mythological Tartarus" (WB&TS, 1974, Ibid, pp.84-85).

"Tartarus is, therefore, not the same as the Hebrew Sheol or the Greek Hades ...in pre-Christian heathen mythologies. ... the Tartarus of the Bible ... is not the same as this Tartarus of Greek mythology." (WB&TS, 1988, Ibid, pp.1068-1069).

This is a fallacious half-truth. Obviously, to the extent it is "mythology," the "Tartarus of Greek mythology," by definition, has no real existence. But that does not mean that the basic concept of the pagan Greek (and Roman) Tartarus, of a place and/or state in the afterlife where the wicked gods (and wicked humans - see part #2), are punished, has much truth in common with the Biblical teaching of the afterlife.

Indeed, the very fact that the Biblical writers Peter and Jude used the same name, "Tartarus" of "Greek mythology," as an illustration of the Biblical teaching of the afterlife, is sufficient evidence that the "Tartarus of Greek mythology" and "the Tartarus of the Bible," on the points mentioned, are effectively the same. Clearly Peter and Jude's ex-pagan Greek Christian readers would have understood by "Tartarus" the same "Tartarus of Greek mythology"that they knew.

5. "In the inspired Scriptures, Tartarus bears no relationship to Hades" :

"In the Iliad, by the ancient poet Homer, the word tar'ta•ros denotes an underground prison ... below Hades ... In the inspired Scriptures, Tartarus bears no relationship to Hades ... " (WB&TS, 1984, Ibid, p.1575).

"Tartarus is, therefore, not the same as the Hebrew Sheol or the Greek Hades ... Tartarus is represented as an underground prison ... far below Hades. " (WB&TS, 1988, Ibid, pp.1068-1069).

This is self-refuting. If "tar'ta•ros denotes an underground prison ... below Hades" then by definition Tartarus bears a "relationship to Hades," namely below it! In fact, as we shall see in part #2, Tartarus was the lower part of Hades.

Continued in part #2. My emphasis is bold below.

Stephen E. Jones.
My other blogs: CreationEvolutionDesign & TheShroudofTurin

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"The angels that so sinned came under sentence from Jehovah God. He degraded them from their blessed position in his lofty organization of light and truth, and debased them to the state or condition symbolically called `Tartarus'. Not having the light of the truth of God's purposes, they are not free, but are under God's continual surveillance as his opponents. Thus they are as in chains. They can never break free from His sentence of destruction upon them, but in their state of Tartarean degradation they await the execution of that sentence with Satan the Devil at the judgment day. The inspired revelation concerning this says: `Whose sentence now from of old lingereth not, and their destruction slumbereth not. For if God spared not angels when they sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.' (2 Peter 2: 3, 4, A.R.V., margin) `And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.'- Jude 6." (WB&TS, 1943, "The Truth Shall Make You Free," Watchtower Bible & Tract Society: Brooklyn NY, pp.131-132).

"2 Peter 2:4 - `Tar'ta•rus' (here derived from the Greek verb tar•ta•ro'o) `Tar'ta•rus' is included in the Greek verb (tar•ta•ro'o), and so in rendering the verb we have used the phrase, `by throwing them into Tar'ta•rus.' In the ancient poet Homer's Iliad the word tar'ta•ros denotes an underground prison as far below Ha'des as the earth was below heaven. Those confined in it were not human souls, but the lesser gods, spirits, namely, the Titans and Cronus, who had rebelled against Zeus (Jupiter). It was the prison established by the mythical gods for the spirits whom they had driven from the celestial regions, and so it was below the Ha'des where human souls were supposed to be confined at death. Thus tar'ta•ros was the lowest of the lower regions, and was a place of darkness. It enveloped all the underworld the same as the heavens enveloped all that was above the earth. We note, therefore, that tar'ta•ros was reputed to be a place for confining, not human souls, but Titan spirits, and that it was a place of darkness and of abasement. The word ... was used to signify a low place, yes, the `lowest part' of the abyss. Therefore it denotes a place or position of abasement. The inspired Scriptures do not consign any human souls to tar'ta•ros, but consign there only the `angels that sinned', namely, spirit creatures. Their being cast into tar'ta•ros denotes for them the deepest abasement while they are still alive, this in punishment for their sin of rebellion against the Most High God. The apostle Peter associates darkness with their low condition, saying further: God `delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment'. (2 Peter 2:4) Doubtless, the pagans in their mythological traditions concerning Cronus and the rebellious Titan gods copied the inspired Scriptures. Peter's use of the verb tar•ta•ro'o meaning to `cast into tartarus' does not signify the `angels that sinned' were cast into the pagan mythological tartarus; but that they were debased by Almighty God from their heavenly place and privileges and were delivered over to dense mental darkness concerning God's bright purposes. Also they had only a dark outlook as to their own eternal destiny, which the Scriptures show is everlasting destruction with their ruler, Satan the Devil. In the inspired Scriptures, therefore, tar'ta•ros bears no relationship to Ha'des, which corresponds with the common grave of the human dead. The sinner angels and the dead human souls are not associated together in tar'ta•ros as a place of eternal conscious torment of creatures. Technically, therefore, tartarus will pass away when the Supreme Judge destroys the rebellious angels at present occupying that low, dark place or position." (WB&TS, 1950, "New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures," Watchtower Bible & Tract Society of New York: Brooklyn NY, pp.785-786).

"... Genesis 6:1-4. During the Flood these sons of God lost their wives and their hybrid offspring. They themselves had to dematerialize. Respecting what happened to them thereafter, the Bible reports: `God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tartarus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment.' (2 Peter 2:4) And at Jude 6 it adds: `The angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.' As these descriptions relate to spirit creatures, it is evident that the `pits of dense darkness' and `eternal bonds' are not literal. These expressions simply convey to us a picture of restraint, a condition of debasement separated from all divine enlightenment. There is no Scriptural basis for concluding that these disobedient angels are in a place like the mythological Tartarus of Homer's Iliad, that is, in the lowest prison where Cronus and the other Titan spirits were said to be confined. The apostle Peter did not believe in any such mythological gods. So there is no reason to conclude that his use of the Greek expression `throwing into Tartarus' even hinted at the existence of the mythological place referred to by Homer some nine centuries earlier. In fact, in Greek the expression `throwing into Tartarus' is only one word, a verb, tar•ta•ro'o. It is also used to mean debasing to the lowest degree. ... the Greek verb rendered `throwing into Tartarus' need not be viewed as suggesting the existence of an actual place, but as suggesting a condition." (WB&TS, 1974, "Is This Life All There Is?," Watchtower Bible & Tract Society: Brooklyn NY, pp.84-85).

"The apostle Peter continues: `As for them, the judgment from of old is not moving slowly, and the destruction of them is not slumbering. Certainly if God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tartarus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment; and he did not hold back from punishing an ancient world, but kept Noah, a preacher of righteousness, safe with seven others when he brought a deluge upon a world of ungodly people; and by reducing the cities Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them, setting a pattern for ungodly persons of things to come; and he delivered righteous Lot, who was greatly distressed by the indulgence of the law-defying people in loose conduct-for that righteous man by what he saw and heard while dwelling among them from day to day was tormenting his righteous soul by reason of their lawless deeds-Jehovah knows how to deliver people of godly devotion out of trial, but to reserve unrighteous people for the day of judgment to be cut off, especially, however, those who go on after flesh with the desire to defile it and who look down on lordship.'-2 Peter 2:3-10. The executional judgment that God has decreed `from of old' against all who come to belong to the `serpent's seed' will without fail be carried out. (Genesis 3:15; John 8:44; Jude 14, 15) Though originally stated about 6,000 years ago and repeated since then, this judgment is `not moving slowly' as if it will never arrive. The destruction is sure to come, for it is not dormant. It is still very much alive in God's purpose. As Peter noted, even angels who had enjoyed being in the very presence of God but who later became unfaithful were not spared being `thrown into Tartarus,' that is, debased to the lowest degree. Cut off from all divine enlightenment, debarred from their original position in the heavens and limited in their activities, the disobedient angels find themselves in a condition comparable to `pits of dense darkness,' awaiting executional judgment at the hands of Jesus Christ. (Compare Revelation 20:1-3, 7-10.)" (WB&TS, 1979, "Choosing the Best Way of Life," Watchtower Bible & Tract Society: Brooklyn NY, pp.152-153).

"'Tartarus' is found only in 2Pe 2:4. It is included in the Greek verb tar•ta•ro'o, and so in rendering the verb, the phrase `by throwing them into Tartarus' has been used. In the Iliad, by the ancient poet Homer, the word tar'ta•ros denotes an underground prison as far below Hades as the earth is below heaven. Those confined in it were not human souls, but the lesser gods, spirits, namely, Cronus and the other Titans who had rebelled against Zeus (Jupiter). It was the prison established by the mythical gods for the spirits whom they had driven from the celestial regions, and it was below the Hades where human souls were thought to be confined at death. In mythology tar'ta•ros was the lowest of the lower regions and a place of darkness. It enveloped all the underworld just as the heavens enveloped all that was above the earth. Therefore, in pagan Greek mythology tar'ta•ros was reputed to be a place for confining, not human souls, but Titan spirits, and a place of darkness and abasement. ... The inspired Scriptures do not consign any human souls to tar'ta•ros but consign there only spirit creatures, namely, `the angels that sinned.' Their being cast into tar'ta•ros denotes the deepest abasement for them while they are still living. This serves as punishment for their sin of rebellion against the Most High God. The apostle Peter associates darkness with their low condition, saying that God `delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment.'-2Pe 2:4. The pagans in their mythological traditions concerning Cronus and the rebellious Titan gods presented a distorted view regarding the abasement of rebellious spirits. In contrast, Peter's use of the verb tar•ta•ro'o, `cast into Tartarus,' does not signify that `the angels that sinned' were cast into the pagan mythological Tartarus, but that they were abased by the Almighty God from their heavenly place and privileges and were delivered over to a condition of deepest mental darkness respecting God's bright purposes. Also they had only a dark outlook as to their own eventuality, which the Scriptures show is everlasting destruction along with their ruler, Satan the Devil. Therefore, Tartarus denotes the lowest condition of abasement for those rebellious angels. In the inspired Scriptures, Tartarus bears no relationship to Hades, which is the common grave of the human dead. The sinful angels and the dead human souls are not associated together in tar'ta•ros as a place of eternal conscious torment of creatures. Tartarus will pass away when the Supreme Judge destroys the rebellious angels presently in that condition of abasement." (WB&TS, 1984, "New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures: With References," [1961], Watchtower Bible & Tract Society of New York: Brooklyn NY, p.1575).

"TARTARUS (Tar'ta•rus). A prisonlike, abased condition into which God cast disobedient angels in Noah's day. This word is found but once in the inspired Scriptures, at 2 Peter 2:4. The apostle writes: `God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tartarus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment.' The expression `throwing them into Tartarus' is from the Greek verb tar•ta•ro'o and so includes within itself the word `Tartarus.' A parallel text is found at Jude 6: `And the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.' Showing when it was that these angels `forsook their own proper dwelling place,' Peter speaks of `the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah's days, while the ark was being constructed.' (1Pe 3:19, 20) This directly links the matter to the account at Genesis 6:1-4 concerning `the sons of the true God' who abandoned their heavenly abode to cohabit with women in pre-Flood times and produced children by them, such offspring being designated as Nephilim. ... From these texts it is evident that Tartarus is a condition rather than a particular location, inasmuch as Peter, on the one hand, speaks of these disobedient spirits as being in `pits of dense darkness,' while Paul speaks of them as being in `heavenly places' from which they exercise a rule of darkness as wicked spirit forces. (2Pe 2:4; Eph 6:10-12) The dense darkness similarly is not literally a lack of light but results from their being cut off from illumination by God as renegades and outcasts from his family, with only a dark outlook as to their eternal destiny. Tartarus is, therefore, not the same as the Hebrew Sheol or the Greek Hades, both of which refer to the common earthly grave of mankind. This is evident from the fact that, while the apostle Peter shows that Jesus Christ preached to these `spirits in prison,' he also shows that Jesus did so, not during the three days while buried in Hades (Sheol), but after his resurrection out of Hades.-1Pe 3:18-20. ... The word `Tartarus' is also used in pre-Christian heathen mythologies. In Homer's Iliad this mythological Tartarus is represented as an underground prison `as far below Hades as earth is below heaven.' In it were imprisoned the lesser gods, Cronus and the other Titan spirits. As we have seen, the Tartarus of the Bible is not a place but a condition and, therefore, is not the same as this Tartarus of Greek mythology. However, it is worth noting that the mythological Tartarus was presented not as a place for humans but as a place for superhuman creatures. So, in that regard there is a similarity, since the Scriptural Tartarus is clearly not for the detention of human souls (compare Mt 11:23) but is only for wicked superhuman spirits who are rebels against God." (WB&TS, 1988, "Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 2: Jehovah - ZuZim," Watchtower Bible & Tract Society: Brooklyn NY, pp.1068-1069).

"Instead, the Bible says that `God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tartarus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment.'-2 Peter 2:4. These wicked angels were not thrown into a literal place called Tartarus. Rather, Tartarus, which is mistranslated `hell' in some Bibles, refers to the abased or fallen condition of these angels. They were cut off from the spiritual light of God's organization, and they have only everlasting destruction awaiting them. (James 2:19; Jude 6)" (WB&TS, 1989, "You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth," [1982], Watchtower Bible & Tract Society of New York: Brooklyn NY, Second edition, pp.94-95).