This morning a Jehovah's Witness knocked on our door. My wife answered the door as I was still getting dressed and had yet to put my shoes and socks on! I had been praying for a JW to visit since we had 
[Right: Front cover of the The Watchtower, July 1, 2012, which the JW spoke to me on and left with me.]
downsized to a smaller house a little over a year ago.
As previously mentioned, following a home `Bible' study with a JW elder, which he abandoned because I was undermining his JW beliefs, my previous house was evidently blacklisted, because JWs would go past in the street ignoring my house, even when I was out the front and said "good morning" to them!
From our bedroom I heard my wife talking with someone at the front door and then, from what I could hear, I realised it was a JW. Afraid that my wife would send him away, as she had done before (this was not the first JW visit to our current house, but the first in which I had been home), I came to the door fully dressed except for bare feet!
There was a young man in a suit whom I estimate was in his thirties, holding a Bible and I could see other overdressed adults and children in the street behind him, laughing (presumably under orders from the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society to always pretend to be happy when out on `field service'). My wife retreated from the door and left him to me. He introduced himself as "AN" (not his real name or initials but I want to minimise the chance that a JW will read this and tip off him or his Kingdom Hall's elders). I invited AN inside but he said "no."
He asked me if I believed in a God who answered prayer and I said "yes." I had resolved that if a JW was to come to my door to let him talk and I would listen to him as much as possible (very hard for me!), and to keep my answers low-key and to volunteer the bare minimum about myself. This was so that I would not drive him away and then my house would be blacklisted again. All through I looked him in they eyes, smiled and was friendly.
AN then read to me out of his New World Translation, Psalm 65:2, "O Hearer of prayer, even to you people of all flesh will come", positioning himself so I could read it for myself.
He then asked me, as someone who believed in a God who answered prayer, if I wondered why there was so much suffering in the world and I said "yes." He then opened the above Watchtower magazine, and turned to a page, ensuring I was reading along with him, and read out the following:
"Even though they may pray some people have doubts that God exists. Perhaps it is because they see so much suffering in this world. Have you ever wondered why God allows suffering? Did God really make humans as they are now - imperfect and subject to suffering? We could hardly respect a God who would purpose for humans to suffer. But consider: this if you walked admiringly around a new car only to find that the far side was damaged would you assume that the manufacturer made it that way? Of course not! You would conclude that the manufacturer made it `perfect' and that someone or something else caused the damage. ... The Bible teaches that God made the first human pair perfect but that later they caused themselves to become damaged (Deuteronomy 32:4, 5). The good news is that God has promised to repair the damage to restore obedient humans to perfection." ("Why Does the Hearer of Prayer Allow Suffering?," The Watchtower, July 1, 2012).
AN asked me if I agreed with that and I said I did. He looked a bit puzzled, as though this was too easy! He then asked me if I had a Bible and I said "yes." Then he asked me if I was a firm believer in God and again I said "yes." I would not be surprised if AN suspected that I was a Christian, but what is he to do? Not make a return visit to any householder who agrees with him on everything?!
AN then asked me if I wanted a free copy of his Watchtower magazine and I said "yes" (being well aware that should mark me as warranting a return visit). He then handed me the magazine (I later found that it had the July 2012 Awake! inside it). I asked AN what his name was again and when he told me I repeated it, so that I would remember it, if he calls again (which I will now pray daily for). AN then shook my hand and left.
I have called this part "#1" in case this is the first of a series of visits by AN.
Stephen E. Jones, B.Sc., Grad. Dip. Ed.
My other blogs: The Shroud of Turin and CreationEvolutionDesign (inactive)
By the triumphant tone of your post, I assume that you found your encounter with the JW to be a victory. However, to me the argument was the equivalent of one person stating that Harry Potter was real (using a Harry Potter Book) and the other stating that Gandalf was real (using selected works of J. R. R. Tolkien). The truth is, you are both deluded. There was no victory.
ReplyDeleteCitizen Atheist
ReplyDelete>By the triumphant tone of your post, I assume that you found your encounter with the JW to be a victory.
No. There was no victory. And the JW has not yet returned.
>However, to me the argument was the equivalent of one person stating that Harry Potter was real (using a Harry Potter Book) and the other stating that Gandalf was real (using selected works of J. R. R. Tolkien).
No. We never stated our respective positions.
>The truth is, you are both deluded.
No. Since Christianity IS true, it is non-Christians (which includes atheists and JWs), who are deluded.
>There was no victory.
I never claimed there was. See above.
This is not a forum to debate Atheism vs Christianity, so any further arguments by you on that topic will be deleted as "off-topic" as per my stated policy below.
But I will leave you with my version of Pascal's Wager:
If you are right, and Atheism is true, then we are both going to die and neither of us will know that Atheism is true. You would have gained nothing and I would have lost nothing (I have a great Christian life).
But if I am right, and Christianity is true, then then we are both going to die (or Jesus will come again) and both of us will know that Christianity is true. You would have lost everything (being punished eternally for your unforgiven sins) and I would have gained everything (being in Heaven eternally with my sins forgiven).
Stephen E. Jones
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Comments are moderated. Those I consider off-topic, offensive or sub-standard will not appear. I reserve the right to respond to any comment as a separate blog post.
Interesting post. If this topic weighs heavy on your mind, why dont just look up a local kingdom hall near you and have a seat in. Im sure it will be to your benefit especially if you have any unanswered questions you would like to ask someone there. Its free and theres no collection plate to be passed around.
DeleteAnonymous
ReplyDelete>If this topic weighs heavy on your mind,
It doesn't weighs heavy on my mind.
But it seems strange that the JWs have not returned. If they don't follow up visits to houses where they had a friendly reception and their material was accepted, then why are they visiting houses at all?
Is it merely to add to Watchtower statistics that they have visited and given out material?
Or maybe someone realised that I was the same person blacklisted at my former address in the same suburb because I knew too much?
>why dont just look up a local kingdom hall near you and have a seat in.
I have in the past considered doing that. But I am losing interest in opposing JWism. I am going to repost my "Jesus is Jehovah!" page so it is on top and not post anything more to this blog.
>Im sure it will be to your benefit especially if you have any unanswered questions you would like to ask someone there.
HOW would it benefit me? I already KNOW that I am saved because I believe Jesus' promise in John 5:24 NWT:
"Most truly I say to YOU, He that hears my word and believes him that sent me has everlasting life, and he does not come into judgment but has passed over from death to life."
>Its free and theres no collection plate to be passed around.
See my post, "Re: `Jesus said, "The Father is greater than I am"' where I answer this claim of the Watchtower that they are superior to Christianity because they don't take up collection plates in their services like most Christian churches do, ending with:
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What HYPOCRISY ! The Watchtower Society (and JWs like you) criticise Christian churches for their Biblical financing of their Lord's work by taking up a freewill offering during the Sunday church service. Yet the Society has its "contribution boxes" which amounts to the same thing (I have even been in a Christian church which uses the same method in lieu of a collection). But in addition to its multi-million dollar book-publishing business using `slave labour', the Watchtower Society has many other ways (see above) of sucking money out of its impoverished and enslaved members, which has enabled it to build its multi-billion-dollar empire!
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Stephen E. Jones
Fyi jesus is jehovahs son, they are not the same person, jehovah sent jesus to die for us, he also said that jehovah is greater than he is. Jehovah aka yahweh in hebrew is god most high over all the earth, and jesus is lord, the one who gave his own life for us
ReplyDeleteAnonymous
ReplyDeleteThanks for your comment.
>Fyi jesus is jehovahs son, they are not the same person,
Agreed: Jesus is Jehovah's Son and that God the Father and God the Son Jesus are not the same person.
As the Watchtower Society itself correctly stated, the Christian doctrine of the Trinity is that there is "ONE GOD in THREE PERSONS":
"How Is the Trinity Explained? ... the Trinity is considered to be `one God in three Persons.' Each is said to be without beginning, having existed for eternity." (Watchtower Bible & Tract Society, "Should You Believe in the Trinity?," 2006, p.3).
But since Jesus IS Jehovah God the Father's Son then He has the SAME NATURE as the Father. That is, Jesus is Jehovah God the Son
>jehovah sent jesus to die for us,
Agreed. But only if Jesus the Son has the same infinite God nature as God the Father would that be sufficient. One finite created angel such as Michael the Archangel, who the Watchtower wrongly claims Jesus is, could not die for the sins of billions of finite created humans.
>he also said that jehovah is greater than he is.
First, Jesus did NOT say "JEHOVAH is greater than he is." Jesus said, "the FATHER is greater than I am" (Jn 14:28 NWT).
Second, here you are playing the fundamentally flawed JW game of `Bible ping-pong', playing one Bible verse off against another:
"In short, Jehovah's Witnesses pit one part of Scripture against another part to force the Bible to agree with their doctrine. This is one of the most frequent errors of Jehovah's Witness biblical interpretation. John 14:28 is said to rule out the possibility that John 1:1 makes Jesus God, regardless of the particular language used in John 1:1 (and indeed, without careful consideration of the precise language and context of John 14:28). In personal dialogue with Jehovah's Witnesses I have seen this error committed repeatedly. One rather naive Jehovah's Witness even presented me with a list of Scriptures `pro' and `con' on the Trinity, with texts such as John 1:1 listed as `pro' and John 14:28 listed as `con'!" (Bowman, R.M., Jr., "Understanding Jehovah's Witnesses: Why They Read the Bible the Way They Do," 1991, p.107).
The right approach is the Christian one of considering ALL the Bible's verses on a topic as true and trying to HARMONISE them. In this case, harmonising the HUNDREDS of Bible verses which say that Jesus is God, with the FEW verses which only APPEAR to contradict that
Third, Jesus said this in the context of His imminent return to the Father. In His incarnation He had temporarily "emptied himself and took a slave’s form":
"Php 1:5-7 NWT. Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men."
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ReplyDeleteSo in the Son's STATE OF HUMILIATION ON EARTH, the Father WAS greater than the Son:
"The second supposed counter-example is found in John 14:28, where Jesus said, `My Father is greater than I' How can the Father be greater if Jesus is equal to God? The answer is that, as a man, Jesus subordinated himself to the Father and accepted limitations inherent with humanity. So, as man the Father was greater." (Geisler, N.L., "Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics," 1999, pp.130-131).
"John 14:28. `My Father is greater than I'. This can refer only to the self-imposed limitations of the Son in His incarnation. He has already claimed equality with God (John 5:18), and oneness with Him (John 10:30), but He was not only true God, He was now also true man. In fact, rightly understood this is a claim of the highest import, for only things of the same order of magnitude can be compared. No mere man or angelic being could ever say `God is greater than I', for created and uncreated are of different orders." (Bruce, F.F. & Martin, W.J., "The Deity of Christ," 1964, p.22).
See my post, "Re: `Jesus said, "The Father is greater than I am"'".
>Jehovah aka yahweh in hebrew is god most high over all the earth,
Agreed. And now that Jesus has ascended back to Heaven He is God MOST HIGH OVER ALL THE EARTH.
Christ has been raised up "FAR ABOVE EVERY government and authority and power and lordship and EVERY NAME NAMED":
Eph 1:20-21 NWT "with which he [the Father] has operated in the case of the Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name named, not only in this system of things, but also in that to come."
God the Father has given Jesus "THE NAME THAT IS ABOVE EVERY NAME":
Php 2:9-11 NWT. "For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."
Note that the NWT's "[other]" is in square brackets, meaning it is not in the Greek text. Thus the NWT confirms that the Bible states that Jesus now has "THE NAME that is ABOVE EVERY NAME"
And even the Watchtower's interpolation of "[other]" does not change that. If Jesus has the name that is above EVERY [OTHER] NAME," then Jesus' name now is above the name "Jehovah"!
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ReplyDelete>and jesus is lord, the one who gave his own life for us
Agreed. But since "Lord" (Gk. Kurios) is the Septuagint's translation of Heb. YHWH, and the Septuagint was the early Christians' Bible, "Jesus is Lord" in:
Rom 10:9 NWT. "For if you publicly declare that ‘word in your own mouth,’ that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved."
and
1Cor 12:3 NWT. "Therefore I would have YOU know that nobody when speaking by God’s spirit says: “Jesus is accursed!” and nobody can say: “Jesus is Lord!” except by holy spirit."
MEANS "Jesus is Jehovah"!
Work your way through the verses in my post, "Jesus IS Jehovah!" and if you allow THE WORDS OF THE BIBLE to speak to you (not the words of the Watchtower), you will agree that Jesus of the New Testament is Jehovah of the Old Testament, come in the flesh.
Stephen E. Jones
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Policies Those comments I consider off-topic, offensive or sub-standard will not appear. I reserve the right to respond to any comment as a separate blog post. As this blog is now inactive (see "my last post to this blog"), I am not debating comments under my old posts on it. So each individual will be allowed only one comment under each post and any response by me will be only once to that individual under that post. Further comments under that post by that individual (or if anonymous who I assume is that individual) simply won't appear.