Re: Is Jesus Jehovah? Please answer the following #1

grandpa len

Again, thanks for your series of questions in a comment under my post, "Watchtower Errors by Bible verse: Index." Your words are

[Above (click to enlarge): The Shield of the Trinity":

"The Shield of the Trinity or Scutum Fidei is a traditional Christian visual symbol which expresses many aspects of the doctrine of the Trinity ...The Father ('PATER'), The Son ('FILIUS'), and The Holy Spirit ('SPIRITUS SANCTUS'). The node in the center of the diagram (within the triangle formed by the other three nodes) is labelled God (Latin `DEUS'), while the three links connecting the center node with the outer nodes are labelled `is' (Latin `EST'), and the three links connecting the outer nodes to each other are labelled `is not' (Latin `NON EST'). ... the following twelve propositions can be read off the diagram: `The Father is God,' `The Son is God,' `The Holy Spirit is God,' `God is the Father' `God is the Son,' `God is the Holy Spirit,' `The Father is not the Son,' `The Son is not the Father,' `The Father is not the Holy Spirit,' `The Holy Spirit is not the Father,' `The Son is not the Holy Spirit,' `The Holy Spirit is not the Son' " (Wikipedia, 2008, "Shield of the Trinity," My punctuation)]

bold to distinguish them from mine.

----- Original Message -----
From: grandpa len
To: Stephen E. Jones
Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 10:29 AM
Subject: [Jesus is Jehovah!] New comment on Watchtower Errors by Bible verse: Index.

>... let's cut to the 'big idea' of most churches: is jesus jehovah? you say yes, i say no.
>
>what does the bible say?

First, by "the Bible" I don't mean the New World Translation, which former Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Governing Body member Ray Franz revealed had no qualified Hebrew or Greek scholars on its translation committee:

"The New World Translation bears no translator's name and is presented as the anonymous work of the `New World Translation Committee.' Other members of that committee were Nathan Knorr, Albert Schroeder and George Gangas. Fred Franz [Ray Franz' uncle], however, was the only one with sufficient knowledge of the Bible languages to attempt translation of this kind. He had studied Greek for two years at the University of Cincinnati but was only self-taught in Hebrew." (Franz, R. , 2002, "Crisis of Conscience," [1983], Commentary Press: Atlanta GA, Fourth edition, Third printing, 2007, p.56).

So unless otherwise indicated, the Bible I will refer to is the American Standard Version because it translates the Hebrew YHWH as "Jehovah".

The Bible (in all mainstream translations by qualified scholars) reveals there is ONE Jehovah (Heb. Yahweh) God (Dt 6:4; Mk 12:29). Yet the Bible also reveals THREE who are called Jehovah:

1. The Father is Jehovah (Dt 32:6; Isa 64:8; Mal 2:10).

2. The Son is Jehovah (Mk 1:1-3; Jn 8:24,58; 12:41; 20:28; Rom 10:9; 1 Cor 8:6; 10:4; 12:3; Php 2:9-11; Heb 1:8-12; Jude 1:4-5; Rev 1:7-8,17; 2:8; 21:6; 22:13).

3. The Holy Spirit is Jehovah (Lk 4:1,18; Ac 5:3-9; 2Cor 3:17; Heb 3:7-11).

>please answer the following:

>with whom was jehovah speaking when he said 'let us make man in OUR image?'

I assume you are referring to Gn 1:26:

"And God ['Elohim] said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

I agree with Old Testament theologians Kidner and Kevan that this is not God talking to angels, but is an example of ".. the plural of fullness" in the Old Testament which "was to be unfolded as triunity" in the New Testament:

"The plural is interpreted by [some] ... as including the angels...[but] ... It is rather .. the plural of fullness, which is found in the regular word for God ('elohim) used with a singular verb; and this fullness, glimpsed in the Old Testament, was to be unfolded as triunity..." (Kidner, 1967., "Genesis," pp.51-52).

"[Gn 1:26] Let us make man ... The deliberation here should be interpreted of the Holy Trinity, not of divine consultation with the angels." (Kevan, 1954, "Genesis," p.78).

And at a deeper level, I assume this is an intimation of the Trinity in the Old Testament:

"Yet even in the OT we have clear intimations of the Trinity ... the plural in Gen. 1:26 and 11:7 is to be noted, as also the plural form of the divine name ..." (Bromiley, 1984, "Evangelical Dictionary of Theology," p.1112).

that is, the Father, conferring with the other two Persons of the Trinity who are intimated in Genesis 1, namely "the Spirit of God" (Gn 1:2) and the Word of God (Gn 1:3; Ps 33:6; Jn 1:1-3):

"Trinity ... In the Old Testament ... even in the opening pages of the OT we are taught to attribute the existence and persistence of all things to a threefold source. There are passages where God, his Word and his Spirit are brought together ... where Elohim is seen to create by means of his Word and Spirit (Gn. 1:2-3). ... Gn. 1:26 points in the same direction, where it is stated that God said: `Let us make man in our image, after our likeness', followed by the statement of accomplishment: `So God created man in his own image', a striking case of plural and singular interchanged, suggesting plurality in unity." (Finlayson, 1982, "New Bible Dictionary," p.1221).

>whom did jehovah present as 'wisdom personified' in proverbs?

If you are referring to Pr 8:22-23:

"Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of his way, Before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, Before the earth was."

I agree it is, as you said, "wisdom personified."

"[Pr 8:22-31]. Wisdom's role in creation. ... Is wisdom here conceived as a hypostasis (i.e. an actual heavenly being) or as a personification (i.e. an abstraction, made personal for the sake of poetic vividness) ? ... the context points to the latter. Not only does the next chapter proceed immediately to a fresh portrait of wisdom, in a new guise (as a great lady (9:1-6) ... but the present passage makes excellent sense at the level of metaphor ... ." (Kidner, 1964, "Proverbs," pp.78-79).

But also this "personifying of wisdom ... was a preparation for its full statement" in "Christ ... the wisdom of God" (1Cor 1:24):

".. there is also a wider setting. The New Testament shows by its allusions to this passage (Col. 1:15-17; 2:3; Rev. 3:14) that the personifying of wisdom ... was a preparation for its full statement, since the agent of creation was no mere activity of God, but the Son, His eternal Word, Wisdom and Power (see also Jn. 1:1-1 4; 1 Cor. 1:24,30; Heb. 1:1-4)." (Kidner, 1964, "Proverbs," p.79).

And note it is the Hebrew word qanah "possessed" not bara' "created"

"qanah .. There does not appear to be any sufficient ground for ascribing the sense of to create to this verb; in all the passages cited for that sense, to possess, appears to be the true meaning ... " (Tregelles, 1949, "Gesenius' Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon," p.735).

"[Pr 8:22] ... Possessed ... Elsewhere this verb (qana) predominantly means `get', and hence `possess' ... Of its 84 Old Testament occurrences, only six or seven allow the sense `create' ... and even these do not require it. The derived nouns still more strongly emphasize possession ..." (Kidner, 1964, "Proverbs," pp.79-80).

and therefore the Watchtower's attempt to apply this directly to the Son would backfire, because it would show that the Son already was "possessed" by the Father "in the beginning ... Before his works of old"!

Besides, it is "absurd" for the Watchtower to claim that God originally lacked wisdom and had to create it:

"... And wisdom for God? To say that at first He lacked it and had to create ... it, is ... absurd." (Kidner, 1964, "Proverbs," pp.79-80).

>when jesus was yet unborn, who was the almighty? [el shaddai]

Since no man has ever seen the Father:

Jn 1:18 "No man hath seen God [the Father] at any time; the only begotten Son [Gk. Theos God], who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

Jn 5:37 "And the Father that sent me, he hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his form."

Jn 6:46 "Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he that is from God, he hath seen the Father. "

1Tim 6:15-16 NIV "God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. "

1Jn 4:12 "No man hath beheld God at any time: if we love one another, God abideth in us, and his love is perfected in us:."

"every visible manifestation of God in bodily form in Old Testament times," including as El-Shaddai, the Almighty:

Gn 17:1 "And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, Jehovah appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am God Almighty [Heb. El-Shaddai]; walk before me, and be thou perfect."

"was a preincarnate appearance of the second person of the Trinity-Jesus Christ":

"... God the Father is invisible (Col. 1:15; 1 Tim. 1:17) .. whom no one has seen or can see ...' (1 Tim. 6:16). ... `no one has ever seen God [the Father], but God the One and Only [Jesus Christ] ... has made him known ' (John 1:18 ... John 5:37 tells us that no one has ever seen God the Father's form. ...This One and Only, Jesus Christ, was sent to reveal and manifest the invisible God to the world. ... every visible manifestation of God in bodily form in Old Testament times was a preincarnate appearance of the second person of the Trinity-Jesus Christ." (Rhodes, "Christ Before the Manger," pp.85-86).

>if it was jesus, which half?

See above. All the appearances of Jehovah in the Old Testament were of the pre-incarnate Son of God, the Second Person of the Trinity, who was Jesus' God-nature.

>if jesus is jehovah, which one is the holy spirit?

See above. the Father is Jehovah; the Son is Jehovah and the Holy Spirit is Jehovah (Lk 4:1,18; Ac 5:3-9; 2Cor 3:17; Heb 3:7-11), i.e. "Each of these three persons share the one divine name, Yahweh or Jehovah":

We can agree, I assume, that the Father is identified as Jehovah.' But ... the Bible identifies Jesus as Yahweh, as well, and the Spirit is the Spirit of Yahweh. Each of these three persons share the one divine name, Yahweh or Jehovah." (White, 1998, "The Forgotten Trinity," p.132).

>what is the holy spirit's name?

The Bible does not reveal that the Holy Spirit has a unique personal name. Except that, even the Watchtower Society's own New World Translation states, "Jehovah is the Spirit":

"... Witnesses apply the name Jehovah only to the Father ... however... their own New World Translation testifies to the divine name's application to the Son (`Father, watch over them on account of your own name which you have given me '-John 17:11) and to the Holy Spirit (`Now Jehovah is the Spirit'-2 Corinthians 3:17)." (Reed, 1996, "Answering Jehovah's Witnesses: Subject by Subject," p.144).

Continued in part #2.

Stephen E. Jones.
My other blogs: CreationEvolutionDesign & TheShroudofTurin

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"Yet even in the OT we have clear intimations of the Trinity. The frequent mention of the Spirit of God (Gen. 1:2 and passim) may be noted, as also, perhaps, the angel of the Lord in Exod. 23:23. Again, the plural in Gen. 1:26 and 11:7 is to be noted, as also the plural form of the divine name and the nature of the divine appearance to Abraham in Gen. 18. The importance of the word (Ps. 33:6), and especially the wisdom, of God (Prov. 8:22ff.) is a further pointer, and in a mysterious verse like Isa. 48:16, in a strongly monotheistic context, we have a very close approach to Trinitarian formulation." (Bromiley, G.W., 1984, "Trinity," in Elwell, W.A., ed., "Evangelical Dictionary of Theology," Baker: Grand Rapids MI, Seventh printing, 1990, p.1112).

"Trinity ... In the Old Testament It can be understood that in ages when revealed religion had to hold its own in the environment of pagan idolatry, nothing that would imperil the oneness of God could be freely given. The first imperative, therefore, was to declare the existence of the one living and true God, and to this task the OT is principally dedicated. But even in the opening pages of the OT we are taught to attribute the existence and persistence of all things to a threefold source. There are passages where God, his Word and his Spirit are brought together, as, for example, in the narrative of the creation where Elohim is seen to create by means of his Word and Spirit (Gn. 1:2-3). It is thought that Gn. 1:26 points in the same direction, where it is stated that God said: `Let us make man in our image, after our likeness' , followed by the statement of accomplishment: `So God created man in his own image', a striking case of plural and singular interchanged, suggesting plurality in unity." (Finlayson, R.A., 1982, "Trinity," in Douglas, J.D., et al., eds., "New Bible Dictionary," [1962], Inter-Varsity Press, Leicester UK, Second edition, Reprinted, 1988, p.1221).

"[Gn 1:26] Let us make man ... The creation of man is the summit of the divine work. The deliberation here should be interpreted of the Holy Trinity, not of divine consultation with the angels. In our image, after our likeness (26). No difference is to be found between the two terms 'image and 'likeness', as if one were constitutional and the other acquired. The phrase conforms to the Hebrew style of parallelism in poetry. This likeness is both natural and moral, in the possession of personality and character." (Kevan, E.F., "Genesis," in Davidson, F., et al., eds, 1954, "The New Bible Commentary," The Inter-Varsity Fellowship: London, Second Edition, Reprinted, 1968, p.78).

"[Gn 1:26] Us...our...our. The plural is interpreted by, e.g., Delitzsch and von Rad as including the angels, whom the Old Testament calls at times 'sons of God' , or, generically, 'god(s) ' (cf Jb. 1:6; Ps. 8:5 with Heb. 2:7; Ps. 82:1,6 with Jn. 10:34,35). This can claim some support from Genesis 3:22 ('as one of us'); but any implication that others had a hand in our creation is quite foreign to the chapter as a whole and to the challenge in Isaiah 40:14 Isaiah 40:14: 'With whom took he counsel?' It is rather the plural of fullness, which is found in the regular word for God ('elohim) used with a singular verb; and this fullness, glimpsed in the Old Testament, was to be unfolded as triunity, in the further 'we' and 'our' of John 14:23 (with 14:17)." (Kidner, D, 1967., "Genesis: An Introduction and Commentary," Tyndale Press: London, pp.51-52).

"[Pr 8:22-31]. Wisdom's role in creation. The section is ushered in by the emphatic The Lord. Here is wisdom's prime credential, presented with wonderful artistry. First, wisdom is what Yahweh as Creator counted primary and indispensable. Second, wisdom is both older than the universe, and fundamental to it. Not a speck of matter (26b), not a trace of order (29), came into existence but by wisdom. Third, wisdom is the spring of joy, for joy breaks out whenever (30b) and wherever (31) the Creator's wisdom is exercised. Joy of creating and joy of existence - the Maker's and the creature's delight - both flow from the exercise of divine wisdom; that is, from God's perfect workmanship. The important and keenly-debated question arises: Is wisdom here conceived as a hypostasis (i.e. an actual heavenly being) or as a personification (i.e. an abstraction, made personal for the sake of poetic vividness) ? To the present commentator, the context points to the latter. Not only does the next chapter proceed immediately to a fresh portrait of wisdom, in a new guise (as a great lady (9:1-6) whose rival (13-18) is certainly no hypostasis), but the present passage makes excellent sense at the level of metaphor: i.e. as a powerful way of saying that if we must do nothing without wisdom, God Himself has made and done nothing without it. The wisdom by which the world is rightly used is none other than the wisdom by which it exists. But if this is how the poem should be read in its immediate context, there is also a wider setting. The New Testament shows by its allusions to this passage (Col. 1:15-17; 2:3; Rev. 3:14) that the personifying of wisdom, far from overshooting the literal truth, was a preparation for its full statement, since the agent of creation was no mere activity of God, but the Son, His eternal Word, Wisdom and Power (see also Jn. 1:1-1 4; 1 Cor. 1:24,30; Heb. 1:1-4)." (Kidner, D., "Proverbs: An Introduction and Commentary," Tyndale Press: London, 1964, Reprinted, 2003, pp.78-79).

"[Pr 8:22] ... Possessed (Vulg., AV, RV), or created (LXX, Targ., RSV)? The Arians (who denied the deity of Christ) appealed to LXX's `created', to prove that Christ, the Wisdom of God, was not eternal. But our concern must be with the word's normal meaning, and with the general sense of the passage. Elsewhere this verb (qana) predominantly means `get', and hence `possess' (see, e.g., Pr. 4:5, 7, where wisdom is the object, as here). Of its 84 Old Testament occurrences, only six or seven allow the sense `create' (Gn. 14:19,22; Ex. 15:16; Dt. 32:6; Pss. 74:2; 139:13; Pr. 8:22), and even these do not require it. The derived nouns still more strongly emphasize possession. ... To sum up: this word expresses getting and possessing, in ways that vary with the context. Goods are possessed by purchase, children by birth (cf. our idiom, to `have' a baby), wisdom - for mortals - by learning. And wisdom for God? To say that at first He lacked it and had to create or learn it, is both alien to this passage and absurd. It comes forth from Him; the nearest metaphor is that of birth (cf. 24,25). But possessed is perhaps ... the most serviceable word for the translator here, leaving the succeeding verses to speak more explicitly." (Kidner, 1964, pp.79-80).

"Denying the deity of Christ and the personality and deity of the Holy Spirit, Witnesses apply the name Jehovah only to the Father. In doing so, however, they ignore the testimony of Scripture concerning the triune nature of God. Theological considerations aside, their own New World Translation testifies to the divine name's application to the Son (`Father, watch over them on account of your own name which you have given me '-John 17:11) and to the Holy Spirit (`Now Jehovah is the Spirit'-2 Corinthians 3:17)." (Reed, D.A., 1996, "Answering Jehovah's Witnesses: Subject by Subject," Baker: Grand Rapids MI, Second printing, 1998, p.144).

"Paul tells us that God the Father is invisible (Col. 1:15; 1 Tim. 1:17) and `lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see ...' (1 Tim. 6:16). John's Gospel tells us that `no one has ever seen God [the Father], but God the One and Only [Jesus Christ], who is at the Father's side, has made him known ' (John 1:18, inserts mine). John 5:37 tells us that no one has ever seen God the Father's form. These passages indicate that it was the Son's unique function to make the Father, who has never been seen, known to man. We know that `the One and Only' is Jesus Christ, for John tells us: `The Word became flesh, and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth' (1:14, italics added). This One and Only, Jesus Christ, was sent to reveal and manifest the invisible God to the world. ... In view of the above factors, it is safe to assume that every visible manifestation of God in bodily form in Old Testament times was a preincarnate appearance of the second person of the Trinity-Jesus Christ." (Rhodes, R., 1992, "Christ Before the Manger: The Life and Times of the Preincarnate Christ," Baker: Grand Rapids MI, pp.85-86).

"[qanah] ... To ERECT, to set upright ... hence- (1) to found, create [see note below] the heaven and the earth, Gen. 14:19,22; men, Deut. 32:6; Psa. 139:13; Prov. 8:22 ... (2) to acquire for oneself, Prov. 4:7; 15:32; 16:16; 19:8; Ruth 4:9, 10; to obtain, Gen. 4:1 (... to possess, to be owner). Specially - (3) to buy ... Gen. 25:10; 47:22, etc.; also to redeem (people out of captivity), Isaiah 11:11; Neh. 5: 8. [Note. There does not appear to be any sufficient ground for ascribing the sense of to create to this verb; in all the passages cited for that sense, to possess, appears to be the true meaning ... NIPHAL, to be acquired, bought, Jer. 32:15, 43. HIPHIL, Zec. 13:5 ... to buy .... But ... Ezek. 8:3, is for ... exciting the jealousy or anger (of God). " (Tregelles, S.P., 1949, transl., "Gesenius' Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament Scriptures," Eerdmans: Grand Rapids MI, Eighth printing, 1967, p.735. Emphasis original).

"When I share the truth about the Trinity and the deity of Christ with Jehovah's Witnesses, I often begin with something like this:

I believe in the Trinity because the Bible teaches the doctrine. No, the Bible doesn't use the specific word `Trinity' any more than it uses the specific word `theocratic' or `Bible:' Instead, it teaches the doctrine by teaching the three pillars or foundations that make up the doctrine. The first such pillar is that there is only one true God, Yahweh, the Creator of all things. The second is that there are three divine persons, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Spirit, and the Spirit is not the Father. Three persons who communicate with one another and love one another. Finally, the third pillar is the teaching that these three persons are completely equal in sharing in the divine Being. This would include the deity of Christ and the personality of the Holy Spirit. This is where we directly disagree. May I show you from the Bible how it teaches these truths?

Jehovah's Witnesses believe the Trinity is nowhere to be found in Scripture, so they are quite confident that you will fail in attempting to support the Trinity from the Bible. So I press on: `I assume you would agree with me that there is only one true God, Yahweh, or as you pronounce it, Jehovah. I believe the name `Jehovah' refers to the very divine Being, the eternal God who created every thing. We can agree, I assume, that the Father is identified as Jehovah.' But I believe that the Bible identifies Jesus as Yahweh, as well, and the Spirit is the Spirit of Yahweh. Each of these three persons share the one divine name, Yahweh or Jehovah. May I show you a few passages of Scripture that make this identification? At this point I can go to a large number of passages where the New Testament writers think nothing of applying to the Lord Jesus passages from the Old Testament that were written in reference to Yahweh. But I have found two particular passages to carry the most weight in communicating this truth to those who believe that Yahweh is God, believe the Bible is true, but reject the deity of Christ: Hebrews 1:10-12 in comparison with Psalm 102:25-27, and John 12:37-41 in comparison with Isaiah 6:1-10." (White, J.R. , 1998, "The Forgotten Trinity: Recovering the Heart of Christian Belief," Bethany House: Minneapolis MN, pp.131-132).