Re: Is Jesus Jehovah? Please answer the following #2

grandpa len

Continued from my "Re: Is Jesus Jehovah? Please answer the following #1" with this, the second part of my three-part response to your questions in a comment under my

[Right: Robert Bowman's, "Why You Should Believe in the Trinity: An Answer to Jehovah's Witnesses" (1989). An excellent book responding to the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society's booklet, "Should You Believe in the Trinity?," and briefly explaining and defending the Christian doctrine of the Trinity.]

post, "Watchtower Errors by Bible verse: Index."

Again, your words are bold to distinguish them from mine.

----- Original Message -----
From: grandpa len
To: Stephen E. Jones
Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 10:29 AM
Subject: [Jesus is Jehovah!] New comment on Watchtower Errors by Bible verse: Index.

>who did jesus worship?

I am not aware of any Bible verse that actually states that Jesus "worshipped" (Gk. proskuneo or latreuo) anyone. However, since He was, in His human nature, a devout Jewish man, Jesus would no doubt have obeyed the commandment in Dt 6:13:

"Thou shalt fear Jehovah thy God; and him shalt thou serve, and shalt swear by his name."

which he quoted from the Septuagint in Mt 4:10:

"Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord [Gk. kurios] thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."

and Lk 4:8:

"And Jesus answered and said unto him, It is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."

However, significantly, there is no Biblical evidence that Jesus Himself worshipped "Jehovah" (i.e. Gk. kurios "Lord") but instead what evidence there is, is that Jesus worshipped "Father." For example, a verse cited by Jehovah's Witnesses as proof that Jesus worshipped Jehovah, Jn 4:22, where Jesus told the Samaritan woman " we [Jews] worship that which we know ..." the wider context reveals it was not "Jehovah" (i.e. Gk. kurios "Lord") but "the Father" who is to be worshipped:

Jn 4:21-24" Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall ye worship the Father. Ye worship that which ye know not: we worship that which we know; for salvation is from the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth: for such doth the Father seek to be his worshippers. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth."

Which does not itself preclude the Son also being worshipped [Gk. proskuneo], since He was (Mt 2:2,8,11; 8:2; 9:18; 14:33; 15:25; 20:20; 28:9,17; Mk 5:6; Lk 24:52; Jn 9:38; Heb 1:6). And as we saw in part #1, contrary to Watchtower dogma, the Bible reveals that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are "Jehovah," and so it is just begging the question for Jehovah's Witnesses to claim that when Jesus says "Father," He really means "Jehovah."

In fact there is no record of Jesus praying to "Jehovah" (i.e. kurios "Lord") but only of Jesus praying to "Father" or "God" :

"Prayer The Watchtower Society has taught its followers that they must address all their prayers to `Jehovah God,' ... However, is that what Jesus taught? The four Gospels record sufficient details of Jesus' earthly life for us to follow Him as our exemplar in the matter of prayer. ... Did He pray to `Jehovah God?' No, the pattern Jesus set is this: `Abba, Father, all things are possible to you.' - Mark 14:36 NWT. `Father, I thank you.' - John 11:41 NWT. `Father, the hour has...' - John 17:1 NWT. `You must pray, then, this way: 'Our Father...' - Matthew 6:9 NWT. The pattern Jesus set was to address God as `Father.' In fact, even the New World Translation does not contain any examples of Christ praying to `Jehovah'..." (Reed, 1996, "Answering Jehovah's Witnesses: Subject by Subject," pp.182-183).

"Contrary to the common practice of Jehovah's Witnesses when addressing God in prayer Jesus consistently addressed Him, never as `Jehovah,' but always as `Father' .. Even in the New World Translation, never once in any of his prayers is Jesus found addressing or referring to his Father as `Jehovah.' ... When with his disciples the final night before his death ... in that entire night .. not a single occurrence is found of his employing the name `Jehovah.' Rather he consistently employed the designation `Father,' doing so some fifty times! When dying the next day, he did not cry out using the name `Jehovah' but said, `My God, my God,' and in his final words said, `Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.' [Mt 27:46; Lk 23:46] ... Jesus taught his disciples to ... address their prayer to `Our Father in the heavens.' [Mt 6:6-9; Jn 15:16; 16:26-27]" (Franz, 2007, "In Search of Christian Freedom," pp.514-515. Italics original).

This is inexplicable in a devout Jew, let alone a Jewish rabbi as Jesus was (Mt 23:7-8; 26:25,49; Mk 9:5; 11:21; 14:45; Jn 1:38, 1:49; 3:2; 4:31; 6:25; 9:2; 11:8), unless Jesus is Jehovah!

>when resurrected, to whom did jesus return?

To "the Father" or "God," not "Jehovah" (i.e. Gk. kurios "Lord"):

Jn 13:3 NIV Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God;

Jn 20:17 NIV Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "

Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus say He is returning to "Jehovah" (i.e. Gk. kurios "Lord").

>who is HIS father?

"God" or "the Father," but not "Jehovah" (i.e. Gk. kurios "Lord"). See above.

>who is HIS god?

"God" or "the Father." Again, nowhere in the Bible does Jesus address "Jehovah" (Gk. kurios "Lord") as His God. (see above). That Jesus called the Father (not "Jehovah", i.e. Gk. kurios "Lord") His God in these verses (the first two synoptic gospel parallels being a quote of Ps 22:1):

Mt 27:46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" - which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Mk 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" - which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Jn 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "

Rev 3:2 Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God.

Rev 3:12 Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.

is no problem at all for the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, since it is based on the Bible. The explanation is that, first, since Jesus in His human nature was a devout Jewish man, the Father was in that sense, Jesus' God.

"Finally, something needs to be said about the question of the submission of the Son to the Father. No trinitarian questions that when Christ was on earth he lived in submission to God the Father. The Father in heaven was exalted while the Son was humble; the Father was greater than Christ (John 14:28). Christ's human nature was not itself divine; the manhood of Christ was created, and therefore Christ as man had to honor the Father as his God. Thus, the Athanasian Creed states that Christ is `equal to the Father as touching his Godhead and inferior to the Father as touching his manhood.' There is no question from a trinitarian perspective that, as man, Christ was in submission to the Father." (Bowman, R.M., 1989, "Why You Should Believe in the Trinity: An Answer to Jehovah's Witnesses," Baker: Grand Rapids MI, Third printing, 1990, pp.14-15).

"Then there are texts that speak of the Father as the God of Jesus Christ (e.g., John 20:17; 1 Cor. 11:3). The Watchtower booklet [Should You Believe in the Trinity?] argues, `Since Jesus had a God, his Father, he could not at the same time be that God' (p. 17). But again, trinitarians do not hold that Jesus is his Father. They hold that Jesus, because he became a man, was placed in a position in which as man he was required to honor the Father as his God." (Bowman, 1989, pp.71-72).

And second, in a unique sense the Father was also Jesus' God before He took on a human nature:

"Yet this submission evidently transcends the historical life of Jesus on earth. He was sent by the Father into the world (1 John 4:9), implying that in some sense Christ was in submission to the Father before becoming a man. Yet, in becoming a man, he became a servant of God (Phil. 2:8), implying that he was not in that master-servant relationship with the Father before becoming a man. After his resurrection and ascension, Jesus continued to refer to the Father as his God (John 20:17; Rev. 3:12) and to regard the Father God as his `head' (see 1 Cor. 11:3)." (Bowman, 1989, p.15).

Jesus distinguished between "my God and your [the disciples' and therefore everyone else's] God" - Jn 20:17:

"At the same time, trinitarians may point out some aspects of the Bible's teaching that show that JWs have misunderstood the implications of the Father being Christ's God. First, Jesus made it clear that the Father was his God in a unique manner compared with the manner in which the Father is our God. Thus, in John 20:17 Jesus stated, `I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God' (NWT). Why did Jesus not simply say, `I am ascending to our Father and our God'? In fact, Jesus never spoke of the Father as `our Father,' including himself along with his disciples. (In Matt. 6:9 Jesus told the disciples that they should pray, `Our Father...,' but did not include himself in that prayer.) Jesus was careful to distinguish the two relationships, because he was God's Son by nature, whereas Christians are God's `sons' by adoption. Similarly, the Father was Jesus' God because Jesus humbled himself to become a man (Phil. 2:7), whereas the Father is our God because we are by nature creatures." (Bowman, 1989, p.72).

An analogy is a prince who is co-reigning with his father the king (as Jesus is Mt 26:64; Mk 14:62; Lk 22:69; Ac 2:34-36; 5:31; 7:55-56; Rom 8:34; 1Cor 15:25; Eph 1:20; Col 3:1; Heb 1:3,13; 8:1; 10:12-13; 12:2; 1Pet 3:22); to everyone else both the son and the father are king, but in a unique sense to the son, the father is still his king.

However, that Jesus is "relationally (or functionally) subordinate or submissive to the Father" does not change the fact that Jesus "in his divine nature is essentially equal to the Father":

"Trinitarians have somewhat different ways of explaining these facts, but they all agree on these conclusions. First, the Son has always been distinct from the Father, and he always will be. Second, in his human nature, Christ will always honor the Father as his God. (Trinitarians believe that Jesus rose from the dead as an exalted man, not as an immaterial spirit, as the JWs teach.) Third, even before becoming man Christ gladly represented the Father to men and sought to honor the Father. Fourth, in his divine nature, Christ has always been and always will be fully God, equal to the Father in essential nature or attributes. Fifth, in his humanity, Christ stands in a relationship to God different than he did before becoming a man. Thus, Christ in his divine nature is essentially equal to the Father, though relationally (or functionally) subordinate or submissive to the Father, especially since becoming a man." (Bowman, 1989, p.15).

These so-called `problems' that Jehovah's Witnesses like you raise against the Trinity are only in your heads, i.e. they are due to your "misunderstanding the Trinity":

"As we shall see, nearly all of the arguments brought against the Trinity by JWs depend to some extent on misunderstanding the Trinity." (Bowman, 1989, p.15)!

Continued in part #3.

Stephen E. Jones.
My other blogs: CreationEvolutionDesign & TheShroudofTurin

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"Prayer The Watchtower Society has taught its followers that they must address all their prayers to `Jehovah God,' using this modern transliteration of the ancient Hebrew Tetragrammaton. (You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth, pages 44 and 228) However, is that what Jesus taught? The four Gospels record sufficient details of Jesus' earthly life for us to follow Him as our exemplar in the matter of prayer. Many of Jesus' prayers are recorded. Did He pray to `Jehovah God?' No, the pattern Jesus set is this: `Abba, Father, all things are possible to you.' - Mark 14:36 NWT. `Father, I thank you.' - John 11:41 NWT. `Father, the hour has...' - John 17:1 NWT. `You must pray, then, this way: 'Our Father...' - Matthew 6:9 NWT. The pattern Jesus set was to address God as `Father.' In fact, even the New World Translation does not contain any examples of Christ praying to `Jehovah'-in spite of the fact that the name `Jehovah' is inserted by the translators in hundreds of verses. Jehovah's Witnesses might object by saying, `Jesus had a close, special relationship with the Father. That's why He did not address Him as 'Jehovah.' True, Jesus was in a close relationship with the Father, but his purpose was to bring all of His disciples into a close, special relationship with God, too. `No one comes to the Father except through me,' Jesus taught. (John 14:6 NWT) Of Christians who come to the Father through Jesus, the Bible says, `you have received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, `Abba, Father.' The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.' (Romans 8:15,16 NKJV) How many of us grew up calling our earthly father `Francis' or `William' or `Ralph' or whatever his name may have been? Even if we were adopted, we learned to call him `Dad' or `Papa'-an intimate expression similar to `Abba, Father.' Their insistence on using the name Jehovah instead reveals that Jehovah's Witnesses know God only from a distance." (Reed, D.A. , 1996, "Answering Jehovah's Witnesses: Subject by Subject," Baker: Grand Rapids MI, Second printing, 1998, pp.182-183).

"Contrary to the common practice of Jehovah's Witnesses when addressing God in prayer Jesus consistently addressed Him, never as `Jehovah,' but always as `Father' (employing that expression six times in just his final prayer with his disciples). Even in the New World Translation, never once in any of his prayers is Jesus found addressing or referring to his Father as `Jehovah.' [Matthew 11:25, 26; 26:39, 42; Mark 14:36; Luke 10;21; 22:42; 23:34, 46; John 11:41, 42; 12:28; 17:1, 5, 11, 21, 24, 25] Hence, when he prays to his Father, saying `Father, glorify your name,' it is evident that the term `name' is here used in its fuller, deeper sense, as representing the Person himself. Otherwise the complete absence in Jesus' prayers of a specific appellative, such as `Jehovah,' would be inexplicable. [John 12:28.] When with his disciples the final night before his death, both in talking to them and in a lengthy prayer Jesus referred to God's `name' four times. [John 17:6, 11, 12, 26] Yet in that entire night, filled with counsel and exhortation to his disciples and in prayer, not a single occurrence is found of his employing the name `Jehovah.' Rather he consistently employed the designation `Father,' doing so some fifty times! When dying the next day, he did not cry out using the name `Jehovah' but said, `My God, my God,' and in his final words said, `Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.' [Matthew 27:46; Luke 23:46] As Christians, whose example, then, should we follow? That of a twentieth-century religious denomination or that of God's Son, manifest at such a crucial time? When Jesus taught his disciples to pray, had he followed the practice developed among Jehovah's Witnesses by the Watch Tower organization he would have taught them either to address their prayer to `Jehovah God' or to have included that name somewhere in their prayer. Instead, he taught them to follow his own example and address their prayer to `Our Father in the heavens.' [Matthew 6:6-9; compare John 15:16; 16:26, 27]" (Franz, R., 2007, "In Search of Christian Freedom," [1991], Commentary Press: Atlanta GA, Second edition, pp.514-515).