Sunday, November 9, 2008

Re: `Tartarus' is a Greek name for a type of prison that the demons were relegated to #2

Pam

Continuing from Re: `Tartarus' is a Greek name for a type of prison that the demons were relegated to #1 with my response to your

[Above (click to enlarge): The Last Judgement by Michelangelo, Sistine Chapel.]

comment under my post "Main reasons why Jehovah's Witnessism is false."

Here is what leading New Testament Greek lexicons and other reference works say about Tartarus (my emphasis is red below):

1. Tartarus is a place. Remember that the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society's claim is that:

"As we have seen, the Tartarus of the Bible is not a place but a condition and, therefore, is not the same as this Tartarus of Greek mythology." (WB&TS, 1988, "Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 2," p.1069).

But note the below language of place in New Testament Greek lexicons in respect of Tartarus: "abode of the damned"; "place lower than Hades," "place of punishment," "subterranean region," and "where they suffer punishment":

"... Tartaros, a Greek name for the under-world, esp. the abode of the damned ..." (Abbott-Smith, 1937, "A Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament," p.440).

"Tartaroo ... Tartarus, thought of by the Greeks as a subterranean place lower than Hades where divine punishment was meted out, was so regarded in Jewish apocalyptic as well ..." (Arndt & Gingrich, 1957, "A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian literature," p.813).

"tartarosas. ... the place of punishment of the fallen angels ...." (Robertson, 1933, "Word Pictures in the New Testament: Volume VI, p.162).

"tartarosas ... the name of a subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to the Gehenna of the Jews..." (Thayer, 1901, "A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament," p.615).

2. Tartarus contains human souls. The Watchtower Society claims that:

"... the mythological Tartarus was presented not as a place for humans but as a place for superhuman creatures. ... the Scriptural Tartarus is clearly not for the detention of human souls ... but is only for wicked superhuman spirits who are rebels against God." (WB&TS, 1988, Ibid., p.1069).

But New Testament Greek lexicons say that Tartarus of the Greeks was: "the abode of the damned"; the "abode of the wicked dead," i.e. not only of wicked gods but also of wicked humans, "where they suffer punishment":

"... Tartaros, a Greek name for the under-world, esp. the abode of the damned ..." (Abbott-Smith, 1937, Ibid, p.440).

"... tartarosas ... the dark and doleful abode of the wicked dead like the Gehenna of the Jews ... " (Robertson, 1933, Ibid, p.162).

"tartarosas ... the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer punishment for their evil deeds ..." (Thayer, 1901, Ibid, p.615).

The whole point of Peter's parallel between the "false teachers" and the "angels when they sinned" is that just as "God ... sent them [the angels] to Tartarus, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment," so also "the Lord" would "hold the unrighteous [false teachers] for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment":

2 Peter 2:1-4,9 (NIV) 1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them-bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. 4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell [Tartarus], putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; ... 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.

Clearly the "gloomy dungeons" called "Tartarus," where the evil angels are "held for judgment," is the parallel equivalent of where "the Lord ... hold[s] unrighteous" humans "for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment."

Peter's (and Jude's) is an a fortiori argument (from the greater to the less), as these quotes by Christian commentators point out:

"... the angels that had revolted. Neither their former rank, their dignity, nor their holiness, saved them from being thrust down to hell; and if God punished them so severely, then false teachers could not hope to escape. ... The argument in this verse is, that if God punished the angels who revolted from him, it is a fair inference that he will punish wicked men, though they were once professors of religion." (Barnes, 1962, "Barnes' Notes on the New Testament," p.1449-1450).

"[2Pet 2:]4. For if. ... As far as angels are concerned, the argument is from the greater to the less. Although they were far more exalted, yet their dignity did not save them from the hand of God. Much less, therefore, will mortal men who have followed their impiety escape." (Calvin, 1963, "The Epistle to the Hebrews and the First and Second Epistles of St. Peter," pp.347-348).

3. Tartarus is a place of conscious torment. The Watchtower Society claims that:

"The sinful angels and the dead human souls are not associated together in tar'taoros as a place of eternal conscious torment of creatures." (WB&TS, 1984, "New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures: With References," [1961], Watchtower Bible & Tract Society of New York: Brooklyn NY, p.1575).

I have agreed in part #1 that Tartarus is not "eternal" but an Intermediate State. So our disagreement is that Tartarus is a place and state of "conscious torment".

But the following New Testament Greek lexicons state that Tartarus was "where divine punishment was meted out,"and where "the wicked dead ... suffer punishment ":

"Tartaroo ... Tartarus, thought of by the Greeks as a subterranean place lower than Hades where divine punishment was meted out..." (Arndt & Gingrich, 1957, Ibid., p.813).

"tartarosas ... regarded by the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to the Gehenna of the Jews..." (Thayer, 1901, Ibid., p.615).

And clearly "punishment" entails that whoever is being punished is "conscious" of that punishment. Indeed the Watchtower admits that in its claim that being "not conscious" entails "not suffering":

"Our dead loved ones are not conscious of anything. They are not suffering ...." (WB&TS, 1995, "Knowledge That Leads to Everlasting Life," pp.82-83).

4. The Tartarus of the Bible is based on the Tartarus of Greek mythology. That is, Peter and Jude (2Pet 2:4 & Jude 6) are quoting from the apocryphal "Book of Enoch," which in turn used the Greek mythological concept of Tartarus, being the place of confinement and punishment of the rebellious Greek gods, as an illustration of the place where the rebellious angels were confined and punished:

"[2Pet 2:4] ... Cast them down to hell (tartarosas). .... Tartaros occurs in Enoch 20:2 as the place of punishment of the fallen angels" (Robertson, 1933, "Word Pictures in the New Testament: Volume VI, p.162).

"tartaroo ... the subterranean abyss of Greek mythology where demigods were punished. It is mentioned in the pseudepigraphical book of Enoch as the place where fallen angels are confined. It is found only in its verbal form in 2 Pet. 2:4 .... Peter has adapted a word and not adopted a theology." (Zodhiates, 1992, "The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament," p.1367).

Here is what New Testament Greek lexicons say about the Tartarus of the Bible being based on the Tartarus of Greek mythology:

"Tartaroo ... Tartarus, thought of by the Greeks as a subterranean place lower than Hades where divine punishment was meted out, was so regarded in Jewish apocalyptic as well ..." (Arndt & Gingrich, 1957, Ibid, p.813).

"tartarosas ... the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to the Gehenna of the Jews ..." (Thayer, 1901, Ibid, p.615).

"tartarosas ... It is strange to find Peter using this Pagan term, which represents the Greek hell ..." (Vincent, 1887, "Word Studies in the New Testament: Volume I," p.691).

Note that both "the Greeks" and "Jewish apocalyptic" had come to think of Tartarus as a "place lower than Hades where divine punishment was meted out," "the abode of the wicked dead," i.e. humans, "where they suffer punishment for their evil deeds," it representing "the Greek hell."

5. Tartarus does bear a relationship to Hades. The Watchtower claims that "Tartarus bears no relationship to Hades" and yet it also claims that "Tartarus is ... far below Hades. "

"In the Iliad, by the ancient poet Homer, the word tar'taoros denotes an underground prison ... below Hades ... In the inspired Scriptures, Tartarus bears no relationship to Hades ... " (WB&TS, 1984, Ibid, p.1575).

"Tartarus is, therefore, not the same as the Hebrew Sheol or the Greek Hades ... Tartarus is represented as an underground prison ... far below Hades. " (WB&TS, 1988, Ibid, pp.1068-1069).

But as I pointed out in part #1, this is self-refuting in that if Tartarus is "below Hades" then it bears a "relationship to Hades," namely below it!

And as previously quoted, both "the Greeks" and "Jewish apocalyptic" thought of Tartarus as bearing the same relationship to Hades as a "place lower than Hades where divine punishment was meted out"; and also that "Tartarus. .. is part of the realm of death designated in Scripture as She'ol ... in the OT and Hades ... in the NT":

"Tartaroo ... Tartarus, thought of by the Greeks as a subterranean place lower than Hades where divine punishment was meted out, was so regarded in Jewish apocalyptic as well ..." (Arndt & Gingrich, 1957, Ibid., p.813).

" tartaroo ... is found only in its verbal form in 2 Pet. 2:4 meaning to cast into or consign to Tartarus. It is part of the realm of death designated in Scripture as She'ol ... in the OT and Hades ... in the NT." (Zodhiates, 1992, Ibid., p.1367).

Indeed, "Tartarus ... in Greek mythology was the lower part ... of hades" and "answered to the Jewish word ... Gehenna":

"... Tartarus ... which in Greek mythology was the lower part, or abyss of hades, where the shades of the wicked were supposed to be imprisoned and tormented, and answered to the Jewish word ... Gehenna." (Barnes, 1962, Ibid.," p.1449-1450).

Besides, "the Iliad, by the ancient poet Homer" is "dated to the late 9th or 8th century BC," but in later Greek mythology, e.g. ~500 years later, by the time of "Plato (c. 400 BC)", Tartarus was held to be within Hades" and moreover human "souls... who received punishment were sent to Tartarus":

"Originally only great sinners like Ixion, Sisyphus, and Tityus, who had offended the gods personally, were punished in Tartarus. But ... Plato [c. 428-347 BC]. According to the latter, the dead were judged ... and were consigned either to Tartarus or to the Isles of the Blest." (Pollard, 1974, "Greek Religion," Encyclopaedia Britannica, p.8:408).

"In classic Greek mythology ... Tartarus... resides within Hades ... with Tartarus being the hellish component. ... Plato (c. 400 BC) wrote that souls were judged after death and those who received punishment were sent to Tartarus." ("Tartarus," Wikipedia, 15 September 2008).

"Originally, Tartarus was used only to confine dangers to the gods of Olympus. In later mythologies ... the judges of the dead ... chose who went to Tartarus .... to be punished in accordance with their sins." ("Tartarus in Greek Mythology," Wikipedia, 15 September 2008).

And the Watchtower conveniently ignores that there was also a Tartarus in Roman mythology, which meant " the underworld," "the infernal regions", i.e. "Of or relating to a lower world of the dead." ("infernal," The American Heritage Dictionary, 2000):

"Tartareus ... Of or belonging to the underworld ... The infernal regions, the underworld." (Glare, 1982, p.1908).

"1. Tartarus ... plur. - Tartara, the infernal regions ... Hence, A. Tartareus ... of or belonging' to the infernal regions, Tartarean, infernal ... Tartarean, infernal ..." (Lewis & Short, 1890, p.843).

To the Romans, Tartarus was the place where sinners are sent ... At the bottom of this pit lie the Titans ... and many other sinners" and "Still more sinners are contained inside Tartarus":

"In Roman mythology, Tartarus is the place where sinners are sent. Virgil describes it in the Aeneid [written ... between 29 and 19 BC ...] as a gigantic place .... There is a pit inside which is said to extend down into the earth twice as far as the distance from the lands of the living to Olympus. At the bottom of this pit lie the Titans, the twin sons of Aloeus and many other sinners. Still more sinners are contained inside Tartarus, with punishments similar to those of Greek myth." ("Roman Mythology's Tartarus," Wikipedia, 15 September 2008).

The Watchtower Society, with its vast Bethel library must know all this, so it can only be deliberately withholding this additional information about Tartarus from its members, in order to keep them in the dark. In which case, Jehovah's Witnesses should heed the Watchtower's own warning:

"Knowing these things, what will you do? ... `the God of truth' and who hates lies, will not look with favor on persons who cling to organizations that teach falsehood. ... And, really, would you want to be even associated with a religion that had not been honest with you? " (WB&TS, 1974, "Is This Life All There Is?,"p.46).

To be continued in, "There is no literal place of fiery torture for lost souls." Quotes referenced above are hyperlinked to the full quote in the `tagline' below (emphasis original italics, emphasis bold mine).

Stephen E. Jones.
My other blogs: CreationEvolutionDesign & TheShroudofTurin


"tartaroo, -o (< Tartaros, a Greek name for the under-world, esp. the abode of the damned), to cast into hell : II Pe 2:4 (v. Mayor, in l.)." (Abbott-Smith, G., 1937, "A Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament," [1921], T. & T. Clark: Edinburgh, Third edition, Reprinted, 1956, p.440. My transliteration).

"Tartaroo 1 aor. etartarosa (Acusilaus Hist. [V BC] 8 ed. AJC. I p. 50; Philodemus, p. euseb. 32, 19 Gomp.; Jo. Lydus, Men. 4, 158 p. 174, 26 W.; cf. Sext. Empir., Pyrrh. Hypot. 3, 24, 210 o Zeus ton Kronon katetartarosen. Tartarus, thought of by the Greeks as a subterranean place lower than Hades where divine punishment was meted out, was so regarded in Jewish apocalyptic as well: Job 41:24; En. 20, 2; Philo, Exs. 152; Jos., C. Ap. 2, 240; Sib. Or. 2, 302; 4, 186) hold captive in Tartarus 2 Pt 2:4." (Arndt, W.F. & Gingrich, F.W., 1957, "A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian literature," University of Chicago Press: Chicago IL, Fourth edition, 1952, Revised, p.813. Emphasis original. My transliteration).

"[2Pet 2:]4. For if God spared not the angels that sinned. The apostle now proceeds to the proof of the proposition that these persons would be punished. It is to be remembered that they had been, or were even then, professing Christians, though they had really, if not in form, apostatized from the faith, (vers. 20-22;) and a part of the proofs, therefore, are derived from the cases of those who had apostatized from the service of God. He appeals, therefore, to the case of the angels that had revolted. Neither their former rank, their dignity, nor their holiness, saved them from being thrust down to hell; and if God punished them so severely, then false teachers could not hope to escape. ... But cast them down to hell. Gr., tartarosas - `thrusting them down to Tartarus.' The word here used occurs nowhere else in the New Testament, though it is common in the classic writers. It is a verb formed from Tartaros (Tartarus,) which in Greek mythology was the lower part, or abyss of hades, where the shades of the wicked were supposed to be imprisoned and tormented, and answered to the Jewish word Geena -Gehenna. It was regarded, commonly, as beneath the earth; as entered through the grave; as dark, dismal, gloomy; and as a place of punishment. ... And delivered them into chains of darkness. `... The meaning seems to be, that they are confined in that dark prison-house as if by chains. We are not to suppose that spirits are literally bound; but it was common to bind or fetter prisoners who were in dungeons, and the representation here is taken from that fact. ... To be reserved unto judgment. Jude 6, ` to the judgment of the great day,' They will then, with the revolted inhabitants of this world, be brought to trial for their crimes. That the fallen angels will be punished after the judgment is apparent from Rev. xx. 10. The argument in this verse is, that if God punished the angels who revolted from him, it is a fair inference that he will punish wicked men, though they were once professors of religion." (Barnes, A., 1962, "Barnes' Notes on the New Testament," [1832], Cobbin, I., ed., Kregel: Grand Rapids MI, Fifth printing, 1970, p.1449-1450. Emphasis original).

"2Pet 2:]4. For if. We have said how much it helps us to know that the ungodly who corrupt the Church by their wicked teachings cannot escape the vengeance of God. He gives evidence of this by three notable examples of divine judgment-that He did not even spare the angels, that He once obliterated the whole world at the Flood, and that He reduced Sodom and other neighbouring cities to ashes. ... As far as angels are concerned, the argument is from the greater to the less. Although they were far more exalted, yet their dignity did not save them from the hand of God. Much less, therefore, will mortal men who have followed their impiety escape. ... To chains of darkness. This metaphor means that they are held bound in darkness to the last day. This comparison is drawn from criminals, who, after they are condemned, suffer half their punishment in the harshness of imprisonment until they are dragged out for the final penalty. Hence we may conclude not only what punishment the wicked endure after death, but also what is the condition of the children of God. They rest peacefully in the sure hope of blessedness, even though they do not yet enjoy it, just as the others endure terrible torture at the thought of the vengeance in store for them." (Calvin, J., 1963, "The Epistle to the Hebrews and the First and Second Epistles of St. Peter," [1549], Johnston, W.B., transl., Eerdmans: Grand Rapids MI, Sixth reprinting, 1980, pp.347-348).

"Tartareus ~a ~um, a. Of or belonging to the underworld, Tartarean. e ~a..plaga CIC. Tusc.2.22 (transl. Sophocles); ~i.. Acherontis ad undas VERG. A.6.296; ~um..custodem (i.e. Cerberus) 6.395; sorores ~ae (i.e. Furies) 7.328; ~as.. domos Ov.Fast.3.620; ~um..deum Tr.1.9.32; ~us canis SEN.Her.F.649; per ~os lacus Phaed.1179; ~i..patris (i.e. Pluto) V.FL.1.828; ~o ululatu 4.393: MART.5.34.4; ~i regina barathri STAT.Theb.1.85; ~o..Ioui (i.e. Pluto) SIL..2.674; (humorously) quos..capacis alui mersit ~o specu PHAED.4.7.10. ... Tartarus (~os) ~i, m. The infernal regions, the underworld. b (personified). ~us horriferos eructans faucibus aestus LUCR.3.1012; tum ~us ipse bis patet in praeceps tantum VERG. A.6.577; datum Pelea ~o HOR.Carm.3.7.17; Max.2.46; noscis ~on et procul nocentum audis uerbera STAT.Silv.2.7.117; (wrongly stated by Varro to have been regarded by Plato as a river in the underworld) VAR.L.7.37. b pater. ~us V.FL. 4.258; ex Aethere et Terra.~us HYG.Fab.3(18+12); 152.1." (Glare, P.G.W., ed., 1982, "Oxford Latin Dictionary," [1968], Clarendon Press: Oxford UK, p.1908).

"1. Tartarus or,. -os i, m., in plur. (on prosodial grounds): Tartara, orum, n., = Tartaros, plur. - Tartara, the infernal regions, Tartarus (poet.; in prose, inferi); sing., Lucr. 3, 1012.; Verg. A. 6, 577; Hor. C. 3, 7,17; Stat. S. 2, 7,116; plur., Lucr. 3, 42; 3, 966; 5;1126; Verg. A. 4, 243; 6, 135; Hor. C. 1, 28, 10, Ov. M. 1, 113; 5, 371; 5, 423; 10, 21 et saep. a1.-Personified : Tartarus pater, i.e. Pluto, Val. Fl. 4, 258.- Hence, A. Tartareus a, um, adj., of or belonging' to the infernal regions, Tartarean, infernal: tenebrica plaga, Cic. pout, Tusc. 2, 9, 22: antrum, i.e., the infernal regions, Luc. 6, 712; umbrae, Ov. M. 6, 676; 12, 257: custos, i.e. Cerberus; Verg. A. G, 395: Acheron, id. ib. 6, 295: 'Phlegethon, id. ib. 6, 551: sorores, i.e. the Furies, id. ib. 7, 328; Stat. Th. 5, 66;. hence, vox Alectus, Verg. A. 7, 514. - B. Tartarinus, a, um, adj., Tartarean, infernal; poet. for horrid, terrible: Tartarino cum dixit Ennius, horrendo et terribili Verrius vult accipi, a Tartaro, qui locus apud inferos, Fest. p, 359. Mull.: corpore Tartarino prognata Paluda virago, Enn. ap. Varr. L, L.7, 37 ib. - Trop.: delator, Amm. 15, 6, 1." (Lewis, C.T. & Short, C.S. , 1890, "A Latin Dictionary," Clarendon Press: Oxford UK, p.843).

"Eschatology. In Homer [c. 850 BC] only the gods were immortal, but Elysium was reserved for their favoured sons-in-law, who were also exempt from death. Heracles alone gained a place on Olympus by his own efforts. The ordinary hero hated death, for the dead were regarded as strengthless doubles who had to be revived with drafts of blood, mead, wine, and water in order to enable them to speak. They were conducted, it was believed, to the realm of Hades by Hermes; but the way was barred, according to popular accounts, by the marshy river Styx. Across this, Charon ferried all who had received at least token burial, and coins were placed in the mouths of corpses to pay the fare. Originally only great sinners like Ixion, Sisyphus, and Tityus, who had offended the gods personally, were punished in Tartarus. But the doctrines of the Orphics influenced Pindar, Empedocles, and, above all, Plato [c. 428-347 BC]. According to the latter, the dead were judged in a meadow by Aeacus, Minos, and Rhadamanthus and were consigned either to Tartarus or to the Isles of the Blest. Long periods of purgation were required before the wicked could regain their celestial state, while some were condemned forever. The dead were permitted to choose lots for their next incarnation, but usually their choice was unwise. Subsequently they drank from the stream of Lethe, the river of oblivion, and forgot all." (Pollard, J.R.T., 1974, "Greek Religion," in Encyclopaedia Britannica, Benton: Chicago IL, 15th Edition, Reprinted, 1984, Vol. 8, p.408).

"[2Pet 2:4] ... Cast them down to hell (tartarosas). First aorist active participle of tartaroo, late word (from tartaros, old word in Homer, Pindar, LXX Job 40:15; 41:23, Philo, inscriptions, the dark and doleful abode of the wicked dead like the Gehenna of the Jews), found here alone save in a scholion on Homer. Tartaros occurs in Enoch 20:2 as the place of punishment of the fallen angels, while Gehenna is for apostate Jews. Committed (paredoken). First aorist active indicative of paradidomi, the very form solemnly used by Paul in Rom. 1:21, 26, 28. To pits of darkness (seirois zophou). Zophos (kin to gnophos, nephos) is an old word, blackness, gloom of the nether world in Homer, in N.T. only here, verse 17; Jude 13; Heb. 12:18. The MSS. vary between seirais (seira, chain or rope) and seirois (seiros, old word for pit, underground granary). Seirois is right (Aleph A B C), dative case of destination. To be reserved unto judgment (eis krisin teroumenous). Present (linear action) passive participle of tereo. `Kept for judgment.' Cf. 1 Pet. 1:4. Aleph A have kolazomenous terein as in verse 9. Note krisis (act of judgment)." (Robertson, A.T., 1933, "Word Pictures in the New Testament: Volume VI: General Epistles, Revelation and John," Broadman Press: Nashville TN, p.162).

"tartaroo, -o: aor. ptcp. tartarosas; (tartaros, the name of a subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to the Gehenna of the Jews, see geenna); to thrust down. to Tartarus (sometimes in the Scholiasts) [cf. W. 25. (24) n.] ; to hold captive in Tartarus: tina seirais [q. v.] zophou, 2 Pet. ii. 4 [A. V. cast down to hell (making the dat. depend on paredoken)]." (Thayer, J.H., 1901, "A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament," T & T. Clark: Edinburgh, Fourth edition, Reprinted, 1961, p.615. My transliteration).

"[2Pet 2:4]. The angels. No article. Angels. So Rev. Compare Jude 6. Cast them down to hell (tartarosas). Only here in New Testament. From Tartaros, Tartarus. It is strange to find Peter using this Pagan term, which represents the Greek hell, though treated here not as equivalent to Gehenna, but as the place of detention until the judgment. Chains of darkness (serais zuphou). Zeira is a cord or band, sometimes of metal. Compare Septuagint, Prov. v. 22 Wisd. of Sol. xvii. 2, 18. The best texts, however, substitute sirois or seirois, pits or caverns. Ziros originally is a place for storing corn. Rev., pits of darkness. Of darkness (zuphou). Peculiar to Peter and Jude. Originally of the gloom of the nether world, So Homer: ...Odyssey, xx., 355 ... , xi., 155. Compare Jude 13." (Vincent, M.R., 1887, "Word Studies in the New Testament: Volume I: Synoptic Gospels; Acts of the Apostles; Epistles of Peter, James, and Jude," Eerdmans: Grand Rapids MI, Reprinted, 1969, p.691. Emphasis original. My transliteration).

"Knowing these things, what will you do? It is obvious that the true God, who is himself `the God of truth' and who hates lies, will not look with favor on persons who cling to organizations that teach falsehood. (Psalm 31:5; Proverbs 6:16-19; Revelation 21:8) And, really, would you want to be even associated with a religion that had not been honest with you? " (WB&TS, 1974, "Is This Life All There Is?," Watchtower Bible & Tract Society of New York: Brooklyn NY, p.46).

"In the inspired Scriptures, Tartarus bears no relationship to Hades, which is the common grave of the human dead. The sinful angels and the dead human souls are not associated together in tar'taoros as a place of eternal conscious torment of creatures. Tartarus will pass away when the Supreme Judge destroys the rebellious angels presently in that condition of abasement..." (WB&TS, 1984, "New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures: With References," [1961], Watchtower Bible & Tract Society of New York: Brooklyn NY, p.1575).

"In Homer's Iliad this mythological Tartarus is represented as an underground prison `as far below Hades as earth is below heaven.' In it were imprisoned the lesser gods, Cronus and the other Titan spirits. As we have seen, the Tartarus of the Bible is not a place but a condition and, therefore, is not the same as this Tartarus of Greek mythology. However, it is worth noting that the mythological Tartarus was presented not as a place for humans but as a place for superhuman creatures. So, in that regard there is a similarity, since the Scriptural Tartarus is clearly not for the detention of human souls (compare Mt 11:23) but is only for wicked superhuman spirits who are rebels against God." (WB&TS, 1988, "Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 2: Jehovah - ZuZim," Watchtower Bible & Tract Society: Brooklyn NY, p.1069).

"Solomon further explained what death means, saying: `The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.' Yes, the dead know absolutely nothing. In view of this, Solomon urged: `All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol, the place to which you are going.' (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) Where do the dead go? To Sheol (Hebrew, she'ohl'), the common grave of mankind. Our dead loved ones are not conscious of anything. They are not suffering, and they cannot affect us in any way." (WB&TS, 1995, "Knowledge That Leads to Everlasting Life," [1984], Watchtower Bible & Tract Society of New York: Brooklyn NY, Second edition, pp.82-83).

"In Roman mythology, Tartarus is the place where sinners are sent. Virgil describes it in the Aeneid as a gigantic place, surrounded by the flaming river Phlegethon and triple walls to prevent sinners from escaping from it. It is guarded by a hydra with fifty black gaping jaws, which sits at a screeching gate protected by columns of solid adamantine, a substance akin to diamond - so hard that nothing will cut through it. Inside, there is a castle with wide walls, and a tall iron turret. Tisiphone, one of the Erinyes who represents revenge, stands guard sleepless at the top of this turret lashing a whip. There is a pit inside which is said to extend down into the earth twice as far as the distance from the lands of the living to Olympus. At the bottom of this pit lie the Titans, the twin sons of Aloeus and many other sinners. Still more sinners are contained inside Tartarus, with punishments similar to those of Greek myth." ("Roman Mythology's Tartarus," Wikipedia, 15 September 2008).

"In classic Greek mythology, below Heaven, Earth, and Pontus is Tartarus, or Tartaros (Greek Tartaros, deep place). It is either a deep, gloomy place, a pit, or an abyss used as a dungeon of torment and suffering that resides within Hades (the entire underworld) with Tartarus being the hellish component. In the Gorgias, Plato (c. 400 BC) wrote that souls were judged after death and those who received punishment were sent to Tartarus. As a place of punishment, it can be considered a hell. The classic Hades, on the other hand, is more similar to Old Testament Sheol." ("Tartarus," Wikipedia, 15 September 2008).

"In Greek mythology, Tartarus is both a deity and a place in the underworld even lower than Hades. ... It is a dank and wretched pit engulfed in murky gloom. ... While, according to Greek mythology, Hades is the place of the dead, Tartarus also has a number of inhabitants. ... Originally, Tartarus was used only to confine dangers to the gods of Olympus. In later mythologies, Tartarus became the place where the punishment fits the crime. ... According to Plato (c. 400), Rhadamanthus, Aeacus and Minos were the judges of the dead and chose who went to Tartarus. Rhadamanthus judged Asian souls; Aeacus judged European souls and Minos was the deciding vote and judge of the Greek. Plato also proposes the concept that sinners were cast under the ground to be punished in accordance with their sins." ("Tartarus in Greek Mythology," Wikipedia, 15 September 2008).

"tartaroo; contracted tartaro, fut. tartaroso, from Tartaros (n.f.), the subterranean abyss of Greek mythology where demigods were punished. It is mentioned in the pseudepigraphical book of Enoch as the place where fallen angels are confined. It is found only in its verbal form in 2 Pet. 2:4 meaning to cast into or consign to Tartarus. It is part of the realm of death designated in Scripture as She'ol (7585, OT) in the OT and Hades (86) in the NT. These angels are being held in this netherworld dungeon until the day of final judgment. Peter's usage of this term is not evidence either that Christianity was a syncretistic religion or that Peter himself believed in the pagan myths about Tartarus. Peter has adapted a word and not adopted a theology." (Zodhiates, S., 1992, "The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament," AMG Publishers: Chattanooga TN, Third printing, 1994, p.1367. My transliteration).

6 comments:

George Weis said...

I love this blog too! WOW, I am so glad you are doing the things you are doing. Jesus is indeed Jehovah... the JWs beliefs can be broken down like a stick wall, or blown over like a house of cards. I really appreciate what you are doing on your blogs! May Christ be lifted up!

-g-

Stephen E. Jones said...

George

>I love this blog too! WOW, I am so glad you are doing the things you are doing.

Thanks again.

>Jesus is indeed Jehovah...

Yes. My reading this morning in my ongoing study of all verses in the NT that indicate Jesus is Jehovah ("Jesus is Jehovah") was Acts 2:21, where the Apostle Peter preaching to Jews in Jerusalem (who therefore already believed in Jehovah), applied Joel's prophecy in Joel 2:32 that, "whosoever shall call on the name of Jehovah shall be delivered," to Jesus (as does the Apostle Paul in Rom 10:13).

>the JWs beliefs can be broken down like a stick wall, or blown over like a house of cards.

Agreed. One of my aims here on this blog is to dismantle the Watchtower, brick-by-brick, providing JWs with sound evidence (e.g. from leading NT Greek lexicons, the WT's own writings, etc), that the WT is "deceiving" them, it itself "being deceived" (2Tim 3:13 KJV); or "misleading and being misled" as the WT's own NWT puts it.

>I really appreciate what you are doing on your blogs! May Christ be lifted up!

Thanks again for your encouraging feedback.

Stephen E. Jones

Diana Lovegrove said...

Hi Stephen

Thanks for this blog. I have recently started meeting with JWs - since the beginning of September, we are working through the What does the Bible really teach book, and are currently looking at the resurrection.

I wonder sometimes whether I am wasting my time as they are very sure of their beliefs. However, each time I have the opportunity to witness to my belief that Jesus is Jehovah I am sure that is achieving something!

I have just been looking at your daily blog where you have all the verses supporting why Jesus is Jehovah. Is it OK to print this out and pass on to the JWs (assuming they will read something written by an 'apostate'!). This is exactly the sort of thing I have been sharing, but having it all together written down in one place is a fantastic resource.

God bless you,
Diana.

Stephen E. Jones said...

Diana

>Thanks for this blog.

Thanks for your comment.

>I have recently started meeting with JWs - since the beginning of September, we are working through the What does the Bible really teach book, and are currently looking at the resurrection.

JW's don't believe in the resurrection, i.e. the SAME body raised from death (as Lazarus was). They believe that the body is ANNIHILATED and then God RE-CREATES the body from His memory (WDTBRT, p.71). But then it is not YOU, but a COPY (or CLONE) of you.

Ask the JWs: 1) was Lazarus RESURRECTED? 2) was he RE-CREATED? If yes to the first and no to the second, then 3) so is resurrection and re-creation the SAME THING?

You could repeat the questions using Jesus instead of Lazarus.

Also, ask them if science could store a blueprint of ALL the information about EVERY molecule in their bodies in a computer, such that they could be killed them and their bodies reduced to dust. And then using the blueprint information, with 100% reliability, totally RE-CREATE their bodies from scratch: 1) would it be THEM? 2) would they allow themselves to be killed and RE-CREATED? If not, why not?

You might lead up to it with an example of their wedding ring. If they lost it, but it could be exactly RE-CREATED by the same jeweller who made it originally, from the same gold bar, would it be THEIR original wedding ring.

There is an obvious CONTRADICTION between p.70 p.71 of WDTBRT. On p.70 they talk of Lazarus just "sleeping in death." But then on p.71 it says resurrection is where God r"re-create[s] life." Which is it?

>I wonder sometimes whether I am wasting my time as they are very sure of their beliefs.

They are not "sure", just WELL-TRAINED in narrow areas. If the Watchtower came out with `new light' on one of their `sure beliefs' they would change them instantly to the NEW `sure belief', or be disfellowshipped.

>However, each time I have the opportunity to witness to my belief that Jesus is Jehovah I am sure that is achieving something!

It is planting seeds that God can grow (1 Cor 3:6).

All the former JW experts say that to get anywhere with JWs you should put your points in the form of questions. That is because JWs are programmed to resist statements but answer questions.

>I have just been looking at your daily blog where you have all the verses supporting why Jesus is Jehovah. Is it OK to print this out and pass on to the JWs (assuming they will read something written by an 'apostate'!).

Feel free to copy those verses or print the whole page and pass it on. I am not an `apostate' (in their definition), since I have never been a JW. So JWs are allowed to read it.

>This is exactly the sort of thing I have been sharing, but having it all together written down in one place is a fantastic resource.

Great!

>God bless you,

And you.

Let me know how you get on.

Stephen E. Jones

Laura Lee said...

Tartarus is where the fallen angels are bound in chains. Tartarus is where humans who have died go, and are bound in chains.

The devils bound in Tartarus are the humans bound in Tartarus and vice versa. The damned who are in hell on the day Satan is cast into hell -- are all the devil and his angels who have been incarnated and born as men. They have lived, died, and thus are bound. It is given to a man once to die and then the Judgment.

I am preparing my next article and was looking for a brief synopsis on the topic. I'll "put it together" for the saints showing that the humans and those fallen angels are the same population.

... before of old ordained to condemnation... wandering stars... fallen angels.

Jude is not speaking either of two separate "population groups". Jude is speaking of one population group: the pre-existent fallen angels who become men -- are wandering stars -- and upon death as men are chained in Tartarus. In fact, their death as men is "how" they are chained -- for it is given unto a man once to die and then the Judgment.

Stephen E. Jones said...

Laura Lee

>Tartarus is where the fallen angels are bound in chains. Tartarus is where humans who have died go, and are bound in chains.

Disagree. The Bible does not say that. All it says is that just as the fallen angels were "cast into ... Tartarus ... to be kept until the judgment" so "the unrighteous [will be kept] under punishment until the day of judgment":

2Pet 2:2-4,9 (ESV) "2 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep. 4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell [margin: Greek Tartarus] and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; ... 9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,"

And in Jude 1:6 only the fallen angels are mentioned as being kept in the same "chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment ":

"And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—"

So the Bible does not say that unrighteous humans will be kept in the same intermediate place, Tartarus, awaiting the Judgment, where the unrighteous angels are.

>The devils bound in Tartarus are the humans bound in Tartarus and vice versa. The damned who are in hell on the day Satan is cast into hell -- are all the devil and his angels who have been incarnated and born as men. They have lived, died, and thus are bound. It is given to a man once to die and then the Judgment.

Disagree that "The devils bound in Tartarus are the humans bound in Tartarus and vice versa." The fallen angels and unrighteous humans are each different in the above two passages.

>I am preparing my next article and was looking for a brief synopsis on the topic. I'll "put it together" for the saints showing that the humans and those fallen angels are the same population.

Don't bother sending it to me, because you are wrong and I don't want to be a party to spreading your false teaching.

>... before of old ordained to condemnation... wandering stars... fallen angels.

>Jude is not speaking either of two separate "population groups". Jude is speaking of one population group: the pre-existent fallen angels who become men -- are wandering stars -- and upon death as men are chained in Tartarus. In fact, their death as men is "how" they are chained -- for it is given unto a man once to die and then the Judgment.

No. Both Jude and Peter are speaking of two separate groups: "angels [that] ... sinned" and "the unrighteous" human "false teachers". Take care that you yourself may not be one of the latter!

Stephen E. Jones
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