Thursday, August 28, 2008

Re: neither does the Bible `clearly' show that hell-fire is real

Pam

Continuing from the first part, Re: Jesus is not Jehovah ... such a thing is unthinkable, of my response to your comment under my post "Main reasons why Jehovah's Witnessism is false."

[Above: Medieval illustration of Hell in the Hortus deliciarum manuscript of Herrad of Landsberg (about 1180): Wikipedia]

Your words are bold to distinguish them from my response.

Again, I don't want to here preempt my eventual posting a separate page under: "9. The Watchtower's doctrine of annihilation, denies the Bible's clear teaching of eternal punishment (Mt 25:46; 2Th 1:9; Rev 20:10) ...." of my "Main reasons why Jehovah's Witnessism is false," so this is mainly a response to your points.

First, by "real" I don't mean literal fire but symbolic representations of real, conscious, painful, punishment, in eternity:

"... the New Testament pictures of hell are metaphors and not literal descriptions. .... Jude calls hell the `blackest darkness' (Jude 13) when only moments earlier in verse 7 he pictures it as an `eternal fire.' ... Both are metaphors for the inexpressible judgment of God." (Crockett, 1992, pp.29-31).

"Gehenna ... translated `hell,' denoting the eternal state of the lost after resurrection. ...There are many phrases in which the overshadowing idea is presented with great distinctness, such as `unquenchable fire,' [Mt 3:12] `the blackness of darkness,' [Jude 13] `furnace of fire,' [Mt 13:42,50] `torment in fire and brimstone,' [Rev 14:10; 20:10] `the smoke of their torment,' [Rev 14:11] `the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone,' [Rev 21:8] `where their worm dieth not,' [Mk 9:44,46,48] `the place prepared for the devil and his angels.' [Mt 25:41] ... the different images under which it is represented cannot possibly be taken literally ... but ... Who shall say that the reality will not infinitely surpass in awfulness the boldest pictures of it?" (Unger, 1966, p.467).

There are eight verses in the King James Version of the Bible that contain both "hell" and "fire." One is in the Old Testament:

Dt 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell [Heb. she'ol], and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

In the context of the above, it is Jehovah speaking (Dt 32:19-20) , and He states that there is a "lowest sheol" and the "fire" of His anger shall "burn" down to it. The New World Translation (1984) has: "For a fire has been ignited in my anger And it will burn down to She'ol, the lowest place ..." and it has a footnote: "Or, `down to the lowest Sheol.'"

Seven of the eight references in the KJV to "hell" and "fire" are in the New Testament (Mt 5:22; 18:8; Mk 9:43,45,47; Jas 3:6; Rev 20:14):

Mt 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca ["empty one," "worthless"], shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire [Gk. ten geennan tou puros - "the Gehenna of the fire"- Kingdom Interlinear Translation (KIT)].

Jesus here teaches that there is a "Gehenna of fire" that those who verbally abuse their fellow humans are "in danger of". Moreover, this is a greater penalty than any human court ("the judgment" and "the council" Gk. to sunedrio - "the Sanhedrin") can impose. But the Jewish Sanhedrin could impose a sentence of death (Mt 26:59; Mk 14:55; Acts 6:12,15; 7:57-58), so this "danger of hell fire" must be greater than that of being executed.

But according to the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society, "When a person dies, he ceases to exist" (my emphasis):

"At death Adam would simply cease to exist! ... the dead ... are conscious of nothing at all.' ... the dead know absolutely nothing. .... Our dead loved ones are not conscious of anything." ("Knowledge That Leads to Everlasting Life," 1995, pp.82-83).

"What happens to us when we die? ... Our memories, feelings, and senses ... do not survive the destruction of our brain ... When a person dies, he ceases to exist. .... The dead do not ... think. Not even one part of us survives the death of the body..." ("What Does the Bible Really Teach?," 2005, pp.57-58).

and "Gehenna is a symbol of annihilation,," "total annihilation," "the state of nonexistence":

"Fear him who after killing has authority to throw into Gehenna,' that is, a symbolic place representing total annihilation. (Luke 12:4, 5; Matt. 10:28)" (Awake, July 22, 1976, p.3).

"Gehenna pictures the state of nonexistence, annihilation ..." (Watchtower, August 15, 1977, p.506).

"So Gehenna is a symbol of annihilation." (Watchtower, November 15, 1997, p.17).

But in that case being executed by the Sanhedrin and ceasing to exist, and being thrown into Gehenna and being totally annihilated, would be equivalent punishments. So being thrown into the "Gehenna of fire" must be a greater punishment than being executed and ceasing to exist. However, only by continuing to be conscious after death could that greater punishment be any punishment at all, let alone being conscious in the "Gehenna of fire"!

In this next verse, Jesus taught that it would be better to live this life on earth without "one eye" [Gk. monophthalmon] than to be in "hell fire" [ten geennan tou puros] with two eyes:

Mt 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

In the previous verse, Jesus taught that this "fire" is "everlasting":

Mt 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire [pur to aionion]

But if Gehenna was "the state of nonexistence" then it would not be better to live this life without a "hand," "foot" and/or an "eye" than ceasing to exist at death.

Also, Jesus' teaching that one can "enter into life" after death "with one eye" [Gk. monophthalmon] refutes the Watchtower's teaching above that, "Not even one part of us survives the death of the body."

The next three of the eight KJV verses that contain "hell" and "fire," further refutes the Watchtower's teaching that "Not even one part of us survives the death of the body," in that Jesus teaches that one can "enter into life" after death being "maimed", i.e. without one hand, "halt", without one foot, and again with only "one eye":

Mk 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mk 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mk 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye [Gk. monophthalmon], than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

The last of these three verses does not have "fire" in the most ancient and best manuscripts (see Mk 9:47 NIV), but the first two of these three verses above does. In those two, Jesus also warned that there is in "hell" "the fire that never shall be quenched" that one could go "into" [eis ton geena eis to pur to asbeston - "into the Gehenna, into the fire the inextinguishable" (KIT)].

Jesus' clear teaching in these above two verses is that there is a place, or state, Gehenna in which there is an eternal and inextinguishable "fire" burning into which unrepentant sinners will "enter into". Whether literal or symbolic, the whole point of Jesus' warning is that in that eternal state of "hell" they will continue to be conscious and suffer painful punishment.

In the next of the eight verses, James likens the tongue to "a fire" [pur] that "is set on fire of hell" [phlogizomene upo tes geena - "being set aflame by the Gehenna" (KIT)]:

Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

The verb phlogizomene is from the root Greek word phlox - "flame, blaze," and is used as a synonym of pur - "fire." But phlox is the word used of the fire of "hell" in Lk 16:23-24 (see next under "Hades").

The last of the eight verses in the King James Version that contains both "hell" and "fire" is:

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Here "hell" is Gk. hades and the "second death" is spiritual death (Rev 2:11; 20:6; 21:8). This "lake of fire" [Gk. te limne tou puros] into which Hades itself is thrown into is clearly equivalent to "the Gehenna of fire" [ten geennan tou puros]. It is "burning with brimstone" and into it will be "cast alive" "the beast ...and with him the false prophet":

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

It is redundantly pointless to say they were "cast alive" into "lake of fire," unless they continued to be alive in the "lake of fire."

Then "the devil ... was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone ... and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever":

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever

which clearly is conscious punishment.

Finally, "whosoever was not found written in the book of life" (Php 4:3; Rev 3:5; 13:8; 17:8; 20:12; 21:27; 22:19) "was cast into the lake of fire":

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The above verses show to that the Bible clearly teaches that there is a "hell-fire," i.e. "the Gehenna of fire." Here also are some quotes from New Testament Greek-English lexicons that show the Bible does clearly teaches that there is a "hell-fire" in which "the wicked after death will suffer punishment" (my emphasis):

"geena ... Mk 9:45, ... from Heb. ge hinnom ... valley of (the son, sons of) lamentation) ... Gehenna, a valley W. and S. of Jerusalem, which as the site of fire-worship ... became a clumping-place for the offal of the city. Later, the name was used as a symbol of the place of future punishment, as in NT: Mt 5:29,30; 10:28; Mk 9:43, 45, 47; Lk 12:5; Ja 3:6; g. t. puros [Gehenna of fire], Mt 5:22; 18:19, prob. with ref. to fires of Moloch ...." (Abbott-Smith, 1937, p.89).

"geenna ... Gehenna .... Valley of the Sons of Hinnom, a ravine south of Jerusalem. ... In the gospels it is the place of punishment in the next life, hell ... As a place of fire ... hell of fire Mt 5:22; 18:9 ... set on fire by hell Js 3:6. ..." (Arndt & Gingrich, 1957, p.551).

"geenna ... is the Greek form of the Hebrew name for the Wadi er-Rababi. ... it ... came to be equated with the hell of the last judgment ... Later it was also used for the place where the wicked are punished in the intermediate state. .... The NT distinguishes between hades and geenna: a. the former is temporary, the latter definitive (cf. Mk. 9:43, 48); b. the former is for the soul alone, the latter for the reunited body and soul (Mk. 9:43ff.; Mt. 10:28). geenna is ... manifested as a fiery abyss (Mk. 9:43) .... Those who fall victim to divine judgment (Mt. 5:22; 23:33) will be destroyed there with eternal fire." (Kittel, & Friedrich, 1985, p.113).

"geenna ... Gehenna, the name of a valley on the S. and E. of Jerusalem ... The Jews ... cast into it ... the dead bodies of ... unburied criminals ... And since fires were always needed to consume the dead bodies ... the place was called geenna to puros ...and then this name was transferred to that place in Hades where the wicked after death will suffer punishment: Mt. v. 22, 29 sq.; x. 28; Lk. xii. 5; Mk. ix. 43, 45; Jas. iii. 6; geenna tou puros, Mt. v. 22; xviii. 9; Mk. ix. 47" (Thayer, 1901, p.111)

"HELL ... geenna ... `the hell of fire,' Matt. 5:22 ... in Matt. 18: 8, 9 ... in Ver. 8, `the eternal fire'... the two being combined in the phrase `the hell of fire,' Ver. 9. ...in Mark 9:43-47 ... to the word `hell' are applied the extended descriptions `the unquenchable fire' and `... the fire is not quenched.' ... Matt. 10:28 declares ... not the loss of being, but of well-being ...." (Vine, 1940, pp.II:212-213).

"geenna .... Hell, the place or state of the lost and condemned (Matt. 5:29, 30; 10:28 [cf. 23:15; James 3:6]). ... The word Gehenna is derived from the Hebr. expression, ga Hinnom Valley of Hinnom ... it was a place of idolatrous and human sacrifices. ... children to `pass through the fire' to Molech ... in Is. 66:24 it bears this new connotation and the punishment of the apostate Jews is conceived of as eternal: `... their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched ... In the NT Gehenna is presented always as the final place of punishment into which the wicked are cast after the last judgment. It is a place of torment both for body and soul ... Matt. 5:29, 30, ... Gehenna is conceived of as a fire (Matt. 5:22; 18:9); an unquenchable fire (Mark 9:45); a place where `... the fire is not quenched' (Mark 9:48); a `furnace of fire' (Matt. 13:42, 50); ... a `lake of fire' (Rev. 19:20; 20:10, 14, 15; 21:8). Because fire is often used as an apocalyptic symbol of judgment ... such a symbol clearly represents a real and painful judgment." (Zodhiates, 1992, pp.360-361).

Jehovah's Witnesses may not realise that the Watchtower's denial of the Bible's teaching of "hellfire" is based on the personal "strong desire" of its founder, Charles Taze Russell (1873-1912) "to remove ... the teaching of a hellfire of eternal torment":

"Turning the `Hose' on Hell In harmony with Brother Russell's strong desire to remove from God's name the foul stain that resulted from the teaching of a hellfire of eternal torment, he wrote a tract featuring the subject, `Do the Scriptures Teach That Eternal Torment Is the Wages of Sin?' (The Old Theology, 1889). In it he said: `The eternal torment theory ... was unknown to the Lord and the apostles ...' ... Brother Russell ... in 1896, in the booklet What Say the Scriptures About Hell?, ... presented ... every text in the King James Version in which the word hell was found, so readers could see for themselves what these said, and then he stated: `Thank God, we find no such place of everlasting torture ...Yet we have found a `hell,' sheol, hades ... and that `hell' is the tomb-the death condition. And we find another `hell' (gehenna-the second death-utter destruction) ... Brother Russell firmly upheld the proposition that `death is death, and that our dear ones, when they pass from us, are really dead, that they are neither alive with the angels nor with demons in a place of despair.' " (WB&TS, 1993, "Jehovah's Witnesses: Proclaimers of God's Kingdom," Watchtower Bible & Tract Society: Brooklyn NY, pp.128-129).

But Russell had no theological training and couldn't even identify the letters of the Greek alphabet (let alone read the Bible's original Hebrew and Greek):

".... In the trial ... When asked by asked by Attorney Staunton ...whether he knew the Greek alphabet, Russell replied, `Oh, yes.' When he was further asked to identify the Greek letters on top of a page of the Greek Testament which was handed him, he was unable to do so, finally admitting that he was not familiar with the Greek language. ..." (Hoekema, 1972, pp.13-14).

So Jehovah's Witnesses, in their following the Watchtower's (and ultimately Russell's) denial of the Bible's clear teaching that hell-fire (i.e. conscious, painful, punishment after death for unforgiven sin) is real, is a prime example of not heeding Jesus' warning of `the blind leading the blind':

Mt 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Continued in "Re: `Hades' is mankind's common grave."

Each reference above is hyperlinked to its full quote below (emphasis original italics, emphasis bold mine).

Stephen E. Jones.
My other blogs: CreationEvolutionDesign & TheShroudofTurin


"geena... Mk 9:45, Rec.), -es, e (perh. through Aram. ... from Heb. ge hinnom, Ne 11:30; ... Jo 18:16; ... IV Ki 23:10; valley of (the son, sons of) lamentation); [in LXX the nearest approach to g. is gaienna, Jos 18:16 (Gai `Onnom A), elsewhere pharagx `Onom, (Jos 15:3, al.), v. Swete on Mk 9:43;] Gehenna, a valley W. and S. of Jerusalem, which as the site of fire-worship from the time of Ahaz, was desecrated by Josiah and became a clumping-place for the offal of the city. Later, the name was used as a symbol of the place of future punishment, as in NT: Mt 5:29,30; 10:28; Mk 9:43, 45, 47; Lk 12:5; Ja 3:6; g. t. puros [Gehenna of fire], Mt 5:22; 18:19, prob. with ref. to fires of Moloch (DB, ii, 119b); uios geennes, Mt 23:15; krisis geennes, 23:33." (Abbott-Smith, G., 1937, "A Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament," [1921], T. & T. Clark: Edinburgh, Third edition, Reprinted, 1956, p.89. My transliteration).

"geenna, es, e Gehenna, Grecized fr. ge hinnom Josh 15:8b; 18:16b; Neh 11:30) Targum ... (cf. Dalman, Gramm.2 183), really ge bene hinnom (Josh 15:8a; 18:16a; 2 Ch 28:3; Jer 7:32; cf. 2 Kings 23:10, where the K'thibh has the pl.: sons of H.) Valley of the Sons of Hinnom, a ravine south of Jerusalem. There, acc. to later Jewish popular belief, the Last Judgment was to take place. In the gospels it is the place of punishment in the next life, hell: krisis tes g. condemnation to G. Mt 23:33. ballesthai ( eis) ( ten) g. (cf. Sib. Or. 2, 291) 5:29; 18:9; Mk 9:45, 47; eubalein eis ton g. Lk 12:5; apelthein eis (ten) g. Mt 5:30; Mk 9:43; apolesai en g. Mt 10:28; uios g. a son of hell 23:15 (Semitism, cf. uios 1cd; Bab. Rosh ha- Shana 17b ... Cf. the oracle Hdt. 6, 86, 3: the perjurer is `Orkou pais). Enochon einai eis ten g. (sc. blethenai) 5:22. As a place of fire g. (ton) puros (PGM 4, 3072 genna puros; Sib. Or. 1, 103) hell of fire Mt 5:22; 18:9; 2 Cl 5:4. Fig. phlogizomene upo g. set on fire by hell Js 3:6.- GDalman, RE VI 418ff; PVolz, Eschatol. d. jud. Gem. '34, 327ff; GBeer, D. bibl. Hades: HHoltzmann-Festschr. '02, 1-29; Billerb. IV '28, 1029-1118. M-M. B. 1485." (Arndt, W.F. & Gingrich, F.W., 1957, "A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature," University of Chicago Press: Chicago IL, Fourth edition, 1952, Revised, p.551).

"Trying to decide whether language in Scripture is literal or symbolic has always proven difficult. In spite of this, there is overwhelming evidence ... that the New Testament pictures of hell are metaphors and not literal descriptions. First, the biblical writers do not intend their words to be taken literally. Jude calls hell the `blackest darkness' (Jude 13) when only moments earlier in verse 7 he pictures it as an `eternal fire.' The same is true for Matthew, who often uses the opposite images of fire (Matt. 3:10, 12; 25:41) and darkness (8:12; 22:13; 25:30) when describing hell. If we extend this to the broad sweep of New Testament theology, we can hardly miss the incongruent images of blackest darkness in Jude and Revelation's vast `lake of fire' (Rev. 19:20; 20:10, 14-15; 21:8). Second, physical fire works on physical bodies with physical nerve endings, not on spirit beings. We see in Matthew 25:41 that the eternal fire was created for spirit beings like the devil and his angels. The fire must in some sense be a spiritual fire, which is another way of acknowledging it to be a metaphor for God's punishment of the wicked. Third, the New Testament descriptions of heaven and hell are symbolic pictures, not itemized accounts of eschatological furniture. The writers use the most powerful symbols available in the first century to communicate their meaning. Heaven is pictured as an ancient city, adorned with the treasures of the world. It comes complete with golden streets, pearled gates, jewel-laden walls, and sparkling rivers. Even the most lowly have plenty of food, spacious living quarters, and eternal rest. Hell is the opposite. There the wicked suffer in darkness and fire, afflicted by maggots and tormented with blows. There they weep and gnash their teeth. Like stars, they wander in eternal night, a symbol of ultimate remorse, where joy and hope are forever lost. Fourth, in ancient times teachers often used words symbolically to underscore their points (rabbinic hyperbole, as we now call it). To be a disciple you must `hate' your father and mother (Luke 14:26), `gouge out' an offending eye (Matt. 5:29), let the dead `bury their own dead' (Luke 9:60). Such colorful language was understood by all to be hyperbole, picturesque speech to bring home the urgency of the situation. The same is true with the images of hell recorded in the New Testament. Their purpose is not to give the reader a detailed, literal picture of torment, but a symbolic one. ... To say that the wicked would `suffer the punishment of eternal fire' (Jude 7) is consistent with saying they will be cast into the `blackest darkness' (Jude 13). Both are metaphors for the inexpressible judgment of God." (Crockett, W.V., 1992, "Response to John F. Walvoord," in, Crockett, W.V., ed., 1992, "Four Views on Hell," Zondervan: Grand Rapids MI, Reprinted, 1996, pp.29-31).

"In June, 1912, the Rev. Mr. J. J. Ross, pastor of the James Street Baptist Church of Hamilton, Ontario, published a denunciatory pamphlet about Russell entitled Some Facts about the Self-styled `Pastor,' Charles T. Russell. [Martin, W.R. & Klann, N.H., "Jehovah of the Watchtower," Zondervan: Grand Rapids, 1959, p.18] Russell sued Ross for libel. In the trial, which took place the following year, Russell was proved to be a perjurer. When asked by Attorney Staunton, Ross's lawyer, whether he knew the Greek alphabet, Russell replied, `Oh, yes.' When he was further asked to identify the Greek letters on top of a page of the Greek Testament which was handed him, he was unable to do so, finally admitting that he was not familiar with the Greek language. [Ibid., p.20] Russell, furthermore, had previously claimed to have been ordained by a recognized religious body. Staunton also pressed him on this point, finally asking him point-blank, `Now, you never were ordained by a bishop, clergyman, presbytery, council, or any body of men living?' Russell answered, after a long pause, `I never was.' [Ibid., p.22] In this trial, therefore, Russell's deliberate perjury was established beyond doubt, and the real character of the man looked up to by his followers as an inspired religious teacher was clearly revealed." (Hoekema, A.A., 1972, "Jehovah's Witnesses," [1963], Eerdmans: Grand Rapids MI, Reprinted, 1990, pp.13-14).

"(geenna [Gehenna] 1. geenna is the Greek form of the Hebrew name for the Wadi er-Rababi. This acquired a bad reputation because of the sacrifices offered to Moloch there (2 Kgs. 16:3). Judgment was pronounced on it (Jer. 7:32), and it thus came to be equated with the hell of the last judgment (Eth. En. 90:26). Later it was also used for the place where the wicked are punished in the intermediate state. The LXX, Philo, and Josephus do not have the term; Philo has tartaros instead. 2. The NT distinguishes between hades and geenna: a. the former is temporary, the latter definitive (cf. Mk. 9:43, 48); b. the former is for the soul alone, the latter for the reunited body and soul (Mk. 9:43ff.; Mt. 10:28). geenna is preexistent (Mt. 25:41). It is manifested as a fiery abyss (Mk. 9:43) after the general resurrection. Those who fall victim to divine judgment (Mt. 5:22; 23:33) will be destroyed there with eternal fire. The ungodly are sons of geenna (Mt. 23:15). They go to it with Satan and the demons (Mt. 25:41; cf. Rev. 19:20; 20:10-11). The threat of geenna in the NT is used to show the seriousness of sin and to awaken the conscience to fear of the divine anger (Mt. 10:28; 23:33). Even contemptuous words must be avoided (Mt. 5:22); no sacrifice is too costly in the war against sin (Mt. 9:43ff.)." (Kittel, G. & Friedrich, G., eds., 1985, "Theological Dictionary of the New Testament: Abridged in one Volume," Bromiley, G.W., transl., Eerdmans: Grand Rapids MI, Reprinted, 1988, p.113).

"geenna [al. would accent geenna, deriving it through the Chaldee. In Mk. ix. 45 Rec. st geena], -es [B. 17 (15)], e (fr. ge hinnom Neh. xi. 30; more fully ... ['the valley of the son of Hinnom'] Josh. xv. 8; xviii. 16; 2 Chr. xxviii. 3; Jer. vii. 32; ... ['the valley of the children of Hinnom'] 2 K. xxiii. 10 K'thibh; Chald. ...], the valley of the son of lamentation, or of the sons of lamentation, the valley of lamentation, ... being used for ... lamentation; see Hiller, Onomastic; cf. Hitzig [and Graf] on Jer. vii. 31; [Bottcher, De Inferis, i. p. 82 sqq.]; acc. to the cont. opinion .... is the name of a man), Gehenna, the name of a valley on the S. and E. of Jerusalem [yet apparently beginning on the W., cf. Josh. xv. 8; Pressel in Herzog s. v.], which was so called from the cries of the little children who were thrown into the fiery arms of Moloch [q. v.], i.e. of an idol having the form of a bull. The Jews so abhorred the place after these horrible sacrifices had been abolished by king Josiah (2 K. xxiii. 10), that they cast into it not only all manner of refuse, but even the dead bodies of animals and of unburied criminals who had been executed. And since fires were always needed to consume the dead bodies, that the air might not become tainted by the putrefaction, it came to pass that the place was called geenna to puros [this common explanation of the descriptive gen. to puros is found in Rabbi David Kimchi (fl. c. A.D. 1200) on Ps. xxvii. 13. Some suppose the gen. to refer not to purifying fires but to the fires of Moloch; others regard it as the natural symbol of penalty (cf. Lev. x. 2; Num. xvi. 35; 2 K. i.; Ps. xi. 6; also Mt. iii. 11; xiii. 42; 2 Th. i. 8, etc.). See Bottcher, u. s. p. 84; Mey., (Thol.,) Wetst. on Mt. v. 22]; and then this name was transferred to that place in Hades where the wicked after death will suffer punishment: Mt. v. 22, 29 sq.; x. 28; Lk. xii. 5; Mk. ix. 43, 45; Jas. iii. 6; geenna tou puros, Mt. v. 22; xviii. 9; Mk. ix. 47 [R G Tr mrg. br.]; krisis geennes, Mt. xxiii. 33; uios tes geennes, worthy of punishment in Gehenna, Mt. xxiii. 15. Further, cf. Dillmann, Buch Henoch, 27, 1 sq. p. 131 sq.; [B. D. Am. ed.; Bottcher, u. s. p. 80 sqq.; Hamburger, Real-Encycl., Abth. 1. s. v. Holle; Bartlett, Life and Death eternal, App. H.]." (Thayer, J.H., 1901, "A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Being Grimm's Wilke's Clovis Novi Testamenti Translated Revised and Enlarged," T & T. Clark: Edinburgh, Fourth edition, Reprinted, 1961, p.111. My transliteration).

"Hell, a term which in common usage designates the place of future punishment for the wicked. ... Gehenna (q.v.), the valley of Hinnom. A place where the Jewish apostasy, the rites of Moloch, were celebrated (I Kings 11:7). It was converted by King Josiah into a place of abomination, where dead bodies were thrown and burnt (II Kings 23:13, 14). Hence the place served as a symbol, and the name was appropriated to designate the abode of lost spirits. In this way the term was used by our Lord. The word occurs twelve times in the New Testament, and in every case it is properly translated `hell,' denoting the eternal state of the lost after resurrection. That is, the meaning of the English word which overbears all others is particularly the meaning of Gehenna (see Matt. 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6). The distinction between hades (the intermediate state) and Gehenna ('eternal hell') is of importance, because not only is it necessary to the understanding of quite a large number of passages in the New Testament, but also it may prevent misconstruction and remove uncertainty as to Christ's teaching with regard to the future state of the wicked. It also has important bearing upon the doctrine of `Christ's descent into hell' (hades) and that of the `Intermediate State.' ... There are many phrases in which the overshadowing idea is presented with great distinctness, such as `unquenchable fire,' [Mt 3:12] `the blackness of darkness,' [Jude 13] `furnace of fire,' [Mt 13:42,50] `torment in fire and brimstone,' [Rev 14:10; 20:10] `the smoke of their torment,' [Rev 14:11] `the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone,' [Rev 21:8] `where their worm dieth not,' [Mk 9:44,46,48] `the place prepared for the devil and his angels.' [Mt 25:41] ... That the different images under which it is represented cannot possibly be taken literally will certainly need no demonstration; but it is perhaps not unnecessary to warn against the opinion that we have to do here with mere imagery. Who shall say that the reality will not infinitely surpass in awfulness the boldest pictures of it?" (Unger, M.F., 1966, "Unger's Bible Dictionary," [1957], Moody Press: Chicago IL, Third edition, Fifteenth printing, 1969, p.467).

"HELL 1. GEENNA ... represents the Hebrew Ge-Hinnom (the valley of Tophet) and a corresponding Aramaic word; it is found twelve times in the N.T., eleven of which are in the Synoptists, in every instance as uttered by the Lord Himself. He who says to his brother, Thou fool (see under FOOL), will be in danger of `the hell of fire,' Matt. 5:22; it is better to pluck out (a metaphorical description of irrevocable law) an eye that causes its possessor to stumble, than that his `whole body be cast into hell,' ver. 29; similarly with the hand, Ver. 30; in Matt. 18: 8, 9, the admonitions are repeated, with an additional mention of the foot; here, too, the warning concerns the person himself (for which obviously the `body' stands in chapt. 5); in Ver. 8, `the eternal fire' is mentioned as the doom, the character of the region standing for the region itself, the two being combined in the phrase `the hell of fire,' Ver. 9. To the passage in Matt. 18, that in Mark 9:43-47, is parallel; here to the word `hell' are applied the extended descriptions `the unquenchable fire' and `where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched.' That God, `after He hath killed, hath power to cast into hell,' is assigned as a reason why He should be feared with the fear that keeps from evil doing, Luke 22:5; the parallel passage to this in Matt. 10:28 declares, not the casting in, but the doom which follows, namely, the destruction (not the loss of being, but of well-being) of ` both soul and body.' In Matt. 23 the Lord denounces the Scribes and Pharisees, who in proselytizing a person `make him two-fold more a son of hell' than themselves (ver. 25), the phrase here being expressive of moral characteristics, and declares the impossibility of their escaping `the judgment of hell,' ver. 33. In Jas. 3:6 hell is described as the source of the evil done by misuse of the tongue; here the word stands for the powers of darkness, whose characteristics and destiny are those of hell. For terms descriptive of hell, see e.g., Matt. 13:42; 25:46; Phil. 3:19; 2 Thess. 1:9; Heb. 10:39; 2 Pet. 2:17; Jude 13; Rev. 2:11; 19:20; 20:6, 10, 14; 21:8. ... For the rendering `hell' as a translation of Hades, corresponding to Sheol, wrongly rendered `the grave' and `hell,' see HADES. ... The verb tartaroo, translated `cast down to hell' in 2 Pet. 2:4, signifies to consign to Tartarus, which is neither Sheol nor Hades nor Hell, but the place where those angels whose special sin is referred to in that passage are confined `to be reserved unto judgment;' the region is described as `pits of darkness,' RV." (Vine, W.E., 1940, "An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: With Their Precise Meanings for English Readers," Oliphants: London, Nineteenth impression, 1969, Vol. II., pp.212-213).

"A proper fear of the Creator even eliminates what is generally viewed as the greatest unwholesome fear-a morbid fear of death, especially of a violent death. This fear of death has been a tool by which ruthless men have controlled many people. Succumbing to fear of torture or execution, many men and women have gone against their conscience and obeyed the orders of dictatorial superiors to commit horrible atrocities against their fellow humans. This has not been the case with fearers of Jehovah God. They know that the present life is not all there is. Even though men may kill them, they do not doubt God's promise of a resurrection. They, therefore, act in harmony with Jesus Christ's words: `Do not fear those who kill the body and after this are not able to do anything more. But I will indicate to you whom to fear: Fear him who after killing has authority to throw into Gehenna,' that is, a symbolic place representing total annihilation. (Luke 12:4, 5; Matt. 10:28) Yes, not man, but God can destroy in Gehenna a person's title to be a living being." (WB&TS, 1976, "Fear Has Its Place," Awake, July 22, p.3).

"Those who are sentenced to Gehenna do not enter into the kingdom of God, either the heavenly rule with Christ or its earthly realm during the millennial reign of Christ. Those whom God sentences to Gehenna do not enter into life at all, even though having all their body members. Hence, Gehenna pictures the state of nonexistence, annihilation, destruction by the adverse judgment of God. Just as the hypocritical scribes and Pharisees of Jesus’ day stumbled themselves into Gehenna, so a dedicated, baptized Christian of today can stumble himself into being sentenced by God to Gehenna, everlasting destruction. Let us remember Judas Iscariot." (WB&TS, 1977, "Have Salt in Yourselves," The Watchtower, August 15, p.506).

"Jehovah clearly explained what death would mean for the sinner Adam. God said: `In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.' (Genesis 3:19) Adam would return where? To the ground, to the dust from which he had been created. At death Adam would simply cease to exist! ... In this regard, human death does not differ from that of the animals. They too are souls, and the same spirit, or life force, energizes them. (Genesis 1:24) At Ecclesiastes 3:19, 20, the wise man Solomon tells us: `As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit, so that [in death] there is no superiority of the man over the beast ... They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust.' Man was superior to the beasts in that he was created in God's image, reflecting the qualities of Jehovah. (Genesis 1:26, 27) Yet, at death humans and animals alike return to the dust. ... Solomon further explained what death means, saying: `The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.' Yes, the dead know absolutely nothing. In view of this, Solomon urged: `All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol, the place to which you are going.' (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) Where do the dead go? To Sheol (Hebrew, she'ohl'), the common grave of mankind. Our dead loved ones are not conscious of anything. They are not suffering, and they cannot affect us in any way." (WB&TS, 1995, "Knowledge That Leads to Everlasting Life," [1984], Watchtower Bible & Tract Society of New York: Brooklyn NY, Second edition, pp.82-83).

"An unbridled tongue `spots us up' completely. For instance, if we are caught lying repeatedly, we may become known as liars. How, though, does an unruly tongue `set the wheel of natural life aflame'? By making life like a vicious circle. A whole congregation may be upset by one uncontrolled tongue. James mentions `Gehenna,' the Valley of Hinnom. Once used for child sacrifice, it became a dump for the disposal of Jerusalem's refuse by fire. (Jeremiah 7:31) So Gehenna is a symbol of annihilation. In a sense, Gehenna has lent its destructive power to the unruly tongue. If we do not bridle our tongue, we ourselves may become victims of the blaze we have started. (Matthew 5:22) We may even be expelled from the congregation for reviling someone.-1 Corinthians 5:11-13." (WB&TS, 1997, "Faith Moves Us to Action!," The Watchtower, November 15, p.17).

"What happens to us when we die? ... The world's religions offer differing answers to these questions. Some teach that if you live a good life, you will go to heaven but if you live a bad life, you will burn in a place of torment. ... Still other religions teach that the dead go to an underworld to be judged ... Such religious teachings all share one basic idea-that some part of us survives the death of the physical body. According to almost every religion, past and present, we somehow live on forever with the ability to see, hear, and think. Yet, how can that be? Our senses, along with our thoughts, are all linked to the workings of our brain. At death, the brain stops working. Our memories, feelings, and senses do not continue to function independently in some mysterious way. They do not survive the destruction of our brain ... What happens at death is no mystery to Jehovah, the Creator of the brain. He knows the truth, and in his Word, the Bible, he explains the condition of the dead. Its clear teaching is this: When a person dies, he ceases to exist. Death is the opposite of life. The dead do not see or hear or think. Not even one part of us survives the death of the body. ... After Solomon observed that the living know that they will die, he wrote: `As for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.' He then enlarged on that basic truth by saying that the dead can neither love nor hate and that `there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in [the grave].' (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10) Similarly Psalm 146:4 says that when a man dies, `his thoughts do perish.' We are mortal and do not survive the death of our body. The life we enjoy is like the flame of a candle. When the flame is put out, it does not go anywhere. It is simply gone." (WB&TS, 2005, "What Does the Bible Really Teach?," Watchtower Bible & Tract Society of New York: Brooklyn NY, pp.57-58).

"geenna; gen. geennes, fem. noun. Hell, the place or state of the lost and condemned (Matt. 5:29, 30; 10:28 [cf. 23:15; James 3:6]). Represents the Hebr. ga-Hinnom (the Valley of Tophet) and a corresponding Aramaic word. Found twelve times in the NT, eleven of which are in the Synoptic Gospels and in every instance spoken by the Lord Himself. ... Terms descriptive of hell are found in Matt. 13:42; 25:46; Phil. 3:19; 2 Thess. 1:9; Heb. 10:39; 2 Pet. 2:17; Jude 1:13; Rev. 2:11; 19:20; 20:6, 10, 14; 21:8. The word Gehenna is derived from the Hebr. expression, ga Hinnom Valley of Hinnom (Josh. 15:8; Neh. 11:30) which is an abbreviated form of `valley of the son of Hinnom' (2 Kgs. 23:10; 2 Chr. 28:3; 33:6; Josh. 18:16; Jer. 7:31, 32; 19:2, 6). .... This place became so notorious through its evil associations that it was simply called `the valley' (Jer. 2:23; 31:40), and the gate of Jerusalem leading toward it `the valley gate' (2 Chr. 26:9; Neh. 2:13, 15; 3:13). This valley lay to the south and southwest of Jerusalem. Topographically, it provided the boundary between Judah and Benjamin (Josh. 15:8; 18:16) and the northern limit of the district occupied by the tribe of Judah after the captivity (Neh. 11:30), and it lay in front of the gate Harsith of Jerusalem (Jer. 19:2). Religiously it was a place of idolatrous and human sacrifices. These were first offered by Ahaz and Manasseh who made their children to `pass through the fire' to Molech in this valley (1 Kgs. 16:3; 2 Kgs. 21:6; 2 Chr. 28:3; 33:6). These sacrifices were probably made on the `high places of Tophet which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom' (Jer. 7:31 [cf. Jer. 32:15]). In order to put an end to these abominations, Josiah polluted it with human bones and other corruptions (2 Kgs. 23:10, 13, 14). But this worship of Molech was revived under Jehoiakim (Jer. 11:10-13; Ezek. 20:30). In consequence of these idolatrous practices in the Valley of Hinnom, Jeremiah prophesied that one day it would be called the `valley of slaughter' and that they should `bury them in Tophet, till there be no place to bury' (Jer. 7:32; 19:11). It is also referred to as a place of punishment for rebellious or apostate Jews in the presence of the righteous. Gehinnom or Gehenna is not actually mentioned with this meaning in the OT, but it is this and no other place that is implied in Is. 50:11, `in a place of pain shall ye lie down' (a.t.). Furthermore, in Is. 66:24 it bears this new connotation and the punishment of the apostate Jews is conceived of as eternal: `They ... shall look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.' The punishment of Gehenna is implied also in Dan. 12:2, `some to shame and everlasting abhorrence' (a.t.). This particular word `abhorrence' occurs in these two passages only, and the reference in both is to Gehenna. Therefore, Gehenna was always conceived of as a place of both corporeal and spiritual punishment, not only for the Jews, but for all the wicked in the presence of the righteous. In the NT Gehenna is presented always as the final place of punishment into which the wicked are cast after the last judgment. It is a place of torment both for body and soul as indicated in Matt. 5:29, 30, `It is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body go into Gehenna' (a.t.). The Lord Jesus did not have the living in mind here, but the dead, for it is not until after the final judgment that the wicked are cast into Gehenna. At the resurrection, the spirit and the body are united. Both are punished in Gehenna. Gehenna as the last punishment was conceived of also as the worst. It slays both soul (the incorporeal spiritual part of man) and body (the corporeal)-not in the absolute sense of annihilation, but relatively in that it permitted a change of state that could suffer the pain and punishment of Gehenna. Thus in Matt. 10:28, `Fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna' (a.t. [cf. Luke 12:5]). Gehenna is conceived of as a fire (Matt. 5:22; 18:9); an unquenchable fire (Mark 9:45); a place where `their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched' (Mark 9:48); a `furnace of fire' (Matt. 13:42, 50); `the outer darkness' (Matt. 8:12; 22:13; 25:30); a `lake of fire' (Rev. 19:20; 20:10, 14, 15; 21:8). Because fire is often used as an apocalyptic symbol of judgment (especially eschatological judgment) it is difficult to insist that the flames are material. Nevertheless, such a symbol clearly represents a real and painful judgment. Hades, the place of the disembodied wicked spirits, is finally cast into it (Rev. 20:14)." (Zodhiates, S., 1992, "The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament," AMG Publishers: Chattanooga TN, Reprinted, 1994, pp.360-361. My transliteration).

Saturday, August 16, 2008

Re: Jesus is not Jehovah ... such a thing is unthinkable

Pam

Thanks for your comment under my post "Main reasons why Jehovah's Witnessism is false." As mentioned, I am responding

[Above (click to enlarge): "Jesus is Yahweh" wheel, in Cetnar, W.I. & J., "Questions for Jehovah's Witnesses," Bill & Joan Cetnar: Kunkletown PA, 1983, Reprinted, 2001, back cover]

to it here in a separate blog post. Actually in two separate posts because of length. Your words are bold to distinguish them from my response.

>Mr. Jones,
>
>Jesus is not Jehovah. For any serious student of the Bible to say such a thing is....unthinkable.

To a committed Jehovah's Witness, who therefore is not a "serious student of the Bible," but a "serious student of" what the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society tells him/her the Bible means (my emphasis below):

"Because the Bible is an organization book .. Jehovah ...has made understanding the Bible today dependent upon associating with his organization ..." (The Watchtower, October 1, 1960, p.668).

"From time to time, there have arisen from among the ranks of Jehovah's people those who ... say that it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively ... But, strangely, through such `Bible reading,' they have reverted right back to the ... doctrines that ... Christendom's clergy were teaching ..." (The Watchtower, August 15, 1981, p.29)

"... God's Word continues to serve as a light to our path ... But Jehovah God has also provided his visible organization ... to help Christians ... understand ... the Bible .... Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication ... we will not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do...." (The Watchtower, December 1, 1981, p.27)

"... opposers ... may also question the need for an organization to direct the minds of God's people ... some central, organized body of men giving direction. They will declare that all one needs to do is to read the Bible." (The Watchtower, March 1, 1983, p.25).

that the pre-incarnate Jesus of the New Testament is Jehovah of the Old Testament is "unthinkable." But to a "serious student of the Bible," who is free to read the Bible for himself, without being told by an organisation what it must mean, as I, an evangelical Christian am, it is not only thinkable, but abundantly evident, that Jesus is Jehovah!

I don't want to here preempt my eventual posting a separate page under: "6. Each person of the Trinity is Jehovah: Father (Isa 63:16), Son (Jn 8:58 NASB) and Holy Spirit (2Cor 3:17). In particular, Jesus is Jehovah ... ," of my "Main reasons why Jehovah's Witnessism is false," so I am here giving only one of many lines of evidence that Jesus is Jehovah:

Jesus claimed to be Jehovah. Jesus stated to the Jewish religious leaders that, "Before Abraham came into being, I AM [Gk. ego eimi]" (Jn 8:58. The Interlinear Bible). Yet ego eimi are the very words in the Greek Old Testament, the Septuagint (LXX), that Jehovah (Heb. Yahweh) used of Himself as His unique self-designation (my emphasis below):

"... John 8:58 deliberately echoes Yahweh's `I am' statements in Isaiah 40-55. ... which the LXX renders as ego eimi (Isa. 41:4; 43:10; 46:4; 52:6; compare with Deut. 32:39)." (Bowman, 1989, p.120).

"Perhaps the strongest claim Jesus made to be Yahweh is in John 8:58, where he says, `Before Abraham was, I am.' This statement claims not only existence before Abraham, but equality with the `I AM' of Exodus 3:14. The Jews around him clearly understood his meaning and picked up stones to kill him for blaspheming (cf. John 8:58 and 10:31-33)." (Geisler, 1999, p.129).

"John 8:58, `Jesus said unto them ... Before Abraham was [born], I am' ... In comparing this with the Septuagint translation of Exodus 3:14 and Isaiah 43:10-13, we find that the translation is identical. .... Jesus literally said to them, `I AM Jehovah' (I AM), and it is clear that they understood Him to mean just that; for they attempted ... to stone Him... [for] blasphemy." (Martin & Klann, 1953, p.52).

"[Jn 8:]58. Before Abraham was ... `before Abraham came into existence or was born.' I am (ego eimi). Undoubtedly here Jesus claims eternal existence with the absolute phrase used of God. The contrast between ... entrance into existence of Abraham ... and ... timeless being ... is complete." (Robertson, 1932, pp.158-159).

My challenge to you Pam, and any other Jehovah's Witness reading this, is to check out prayerfully the verses in my post, Jesus is Jehovah!, on my CED blog (before I created this Jesus is Jehovah! blog), and/or in my daily Bible study, "Jesus is Jehovah!"

>Jesus himself distinguished between himself and his Father, Jehovah. Luke 4 shows him applying Isaiah 61:1 to himself (Jehovah anointed him, Jehovah sent him), ....

Your fallacious assumption here is that if the "Father" is "Jehovah" then Jesus cannot be "Jehovah." But it ignores what I stated, that: "6. Each person of the Trinity is Jehovah: Father ... Son and Holy Spirit." Even the Watchtower's New World Translation states, in the verse I cited, 2Cor 3:17, shows that the Holy Spirit is Jehovah:

"Now Jehovah is the Spirit; and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom." (my emphasis)

That this "spirit of Jehovah" is the Holy Spirit is evident in the same letter (NWT) where Paul calls Him the "the holy spirit" (2Cor 13:14; 6:6); "his [Christ's] Spirit" (2Cor 1:22); the "Spirit of a living God" (2Cor 3:3); "the Spirit" (2Cor 3:6,3:8,18; 5:5); "the [one] spirit" (2Cor 11:4). Cf. "one spirit" (1Cor 12:9,13; Eph 2:18; 4:4; Php 1:27 NWT).

It is interesting that you say of "Luke 4" where Jesus applies "Isaiah 61:1 to himself" that "Jehovah anointed him, Jehovah sent him" when it actually is "Jehovah's spirit" [Gk. pneuma kuriou "spirit of Lord" - Kingdom Interlinear Translation] (my emphasis below):

Lk 4:16-18 NWT 16 And he [Jesus] came to Naz´a·reth, where he had been reared; and, according to his custom on the sabbath day, he entered into the synagogue, and he stood up to read. 17 So the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed him, and he opened the scroll and found the place where it was written: 18 "Jehovah's spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor, he sent me forth to preach a release to the captives and a recovery of sight to the blind, to send the crushed ones away with a release,

who Isa 61:1-2 NWT says was upon Jesus:

1 The spirit of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah is upon me, for the reason that Jehovah has anointed me to tell good news to the meek ones. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to those taken captive and the wide opening [of the eyes] even to the prisoners; 2 to proclaim the year of goodwill on the part of Jehovah and the day of vengeance on the part of our God; to comfort all the mourning ones;

And the context makes it clear that this "Jehovah's spirit" who was "upon" Jesus was the Holy Spirit:

Lk 3:21-22 NWT 21 Now when all the people were baptized, Jesus also was baptized and, as he was praying, the heaven was opened up 22 and the holy spirit in bodily shape like a dove came down upon him, and a voice came out of heaven: "You are my Son, the beloved; I have approved you."

Lk 4:1,18 NWT 1 Now Jesus, full of holy spirit, turned away from the Jordan, and he was led about by the spirit in the wilderness ... 14 Now Jesus returned in the power of the spirit into Gal´i·lee.

The same author Luke, in Acts 5:3,9 NWT, makes it even more clear that "the holy spirit" and "the spirit of Jehovah" are one and the same (my emphasis below):

3 But Peter said: "An·a·ni´as, why has Satan emboldened you to play false to the holy spirit and to hold back secretly some of the price of the field? ... 9 So Peter said to her: "Why was it agreed upon between YOU [two] to make a test of the spirit of Jehovah?

So without realising it (because of the Watchtower Society's interpretive `straitjacket' on your Jehovah's Witness mind) you have actually partly made my point, that the Holy Spirit is Jehovah!

>and Psalm 110 and Psalm 2 show Jehovah and His Son to be different. Jehovah speaks to David's Lord, the Messiah. ...

Christians agree that "Jehovah and His Son" are "different." But again the Watchtower's fallacious assumption is that Jehovah is only the Father and that the Son (and the Holy Spirit) are not Jehovah.

By "Psalm 110", I presume you are referring to Psalm 110:1 , which says (NWT):

The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: "Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet."

Jesus in Mt 22:42-45 NWT makes it clear that the "my Lord" is "Christ", i.e. Himself:

41 Now while the Pharisees were gathered together Jesus asked them: 42"What do YOU think about the Christ? Whose son is he?" They said to him: "David's." 43 He said to them:"How, then, is it that David by inspiration calls him `Lord,' saying, 44 `Jehovah said to my Lord:"Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies beneath your feet"'? 45 If, therefore, David calls him `Lord,' how is he his son?"

This only seems to be a problem to Jehovah's Witnesses with their preconceived Unitarian view of God that they read into the Bible, not read out of the Bible. But it is no problem at all for Christians with their biblical Trinitarian view of God, which they read out of the Bible, in which, as I had already stated, "6. Each person of the Trinity is Jehovah: Father ... Son and Holy Spirit." So the answer to this apparent problem, is that Jehovah the Father is talking to Jehovah the Son (my emphasis below):

"Psalm 110:1 ... Jehovah's Witnesses ... argue ... that the Lord Jesus must be a mere created being, since Jehovah God is addressing a person distinct from himself. ... Knowledgeable Christians who read this verse will grasp that God the Father is speaking to the Son. " (Reed, 1986, pp.35-36).

"... Psalm 110 shows God, the Father in heaven, talking to the Son (also God) upon the earth." (Reed, 1986, pp.36-37).

"Psalm 110:1-Jehovah and `My Lord'. ... This verse makes perfect sense within the scope of trinitarian theology. .... Scripture not only teaches that the Messiah would be the Son of David in terms of His humanity, it also teaches that He is God ... Here we have the first person of the Trinity speaking to the second person of the Trinity." (Rhodes, 1993, pp.161-162).

As for "Psalm 2 show Jehovah and His Son to be different," agreed that "Psalm 2 is properly classified as a Messianic psalm because of the usage of it in the New Testament. This psalm is quoted seven times by the apostles, and in each instance it is applied to the Messiah. [Acts 4:24-28; 13:33; Heb. 1:5; 5:5; Rev. 2:27; 12:5; 19:15]" (Smith, 1993, pp.154-155). But as with Ps 110 above, it is" the first person of the Trinity," Jehovah the Father, "speaking to the second person of the Trinity," Jehovah the Son:

"... Psalm 2 is a messianic psalm-that is, it is a psalm that deals with the Messiah, Jesus Christ. ... the `Son' ....is not a reference to an earthly king ... but is a reference to the second person of the Trinity, Jesus Christ." (Rhodes, 1992, pp.140-141. (My emphasis).

>Jesus also prays to his Father, Jehovah, when he was on earth

See above on the Watchtower's fallacious assumption that the "Father" only is "Jehovah,"when the Bible teaches that not only the Father, but also the Son and the Holy Spirit are each called "Jehovah."

And actually this is false that "Jesus ... pray[ed] to ... Jehovah, when he was on earth." The Biblical evidence is that Jesus never prayed to "Jehovah" and nor did He teach His disciples to pray to "Jehovah". Jesus in the Bible only ever prayed to "Father" and He taught His disciples to pray to "Father" also (my emphasis below):

"Did he [Jesus] begin his own prayers with the expression `Jehovah God,' as the Witnesses do? Not at all! ... Jesus taught his disciples to pray to `our Father,' not to `Jehovah God.' ... Many of Jesus' own personal prayers are also recorded in the Bible, and in these he sets the same example: `Father...' (John 11:41, NWT). `Abba, Father, ...' (Mark 14:36, NWT). `Father...' (John 17:1, NWT)." (Reed, 1986, pp.52-53).

"The Watchtower Society has taught its followers that they must address all their prayers to `Jehovah God,' ... Many of Jesus' prayers are recorded. Did He pray to `Jehovah God?' No, the pattern Jesus set is this: `Abba, Father ....' - Mark 14:36 NWT. `Father ...' - John 11:41 NWT. `Father ....' - John 17:1 NWT. `You must pray, then, this way: 'Our Father...' - Matthew 6:9 NWT. The pattern Jesus set was to address God as `Father.' In fact, even the New World Translation does not contain any examples of Christ praying to `Jehovah'...." (Reed, 1996, p.182-183)

This is inexplicable in a devout Jew as Jesus was, unless Jesus is Jehovah!

>No, Jesus is certainly not Jehovah,

See above. Jesus certainly is Jehovah! And what's more, Jesus warned that if you do not believe that He is I AM (Gk. ego eimi - no "he"):

Jn 8:24 NWT Therefore I said to YOU, YOU will die in YOUR sins. For if YOU do not believe that I am [he], YOU will die in YOUR sins."

that is, that Jesus is Jehovah (my emphasis below):

"The real problem [for Jehovah's Witnesses] in the verse [John 8:58] is the verb Ego Eimi. .... This usage occurs four times (Jn 8:24, 58; 13:19; 18:5). In these places, the term is the same used by the Septuagint at Deuteronomy 32:39; Isaiah 43:10; and 46:4, to render the Hebrew phrase `I (am) He.' .... The phrase then is a claim to full and equal deity. ... He is Jehovah!" (Martin & Klann, 1953, p.53).

"Jesus Is Yahweh ... .. in John 8:24 (NASB) Jesus declared, `Unless you believe that I am [I AM or ego eimi] He, you shall die in your sins.' The original Greek text for this verse does not have the word he. The verse is literally, `If you do not believe that I AM, you shall die in your sins.'" (Rhodes, 1993, pp.62-63).

"[Jn 8:]24. For except ye believe ... `For unless ye come to believe.' That I am he ... with no word in the predicate after the copula eimi. ... `that I am' ... in the absolute sense as the Jews ... used ... of Jehovah .... Jesus seems to claim absolute divine being as in 8:58." (Robertson, 1932, p.146).

then "YOU will die in YOUR sins".

Quotes referenced above are hyperlinked to the full quote in the `tagline' below (emphasis original italics, emphasis bold mine).

Continued in "neither does the Bible `clearly' show that hell-fire is real."

Stephen E. Jones.
My other blogs: CreationEvolutionDesign & TheShroudofTurin


"Jesus as Jehovah in John 8:58 Among biblical scholars a growing consensus has formed behind the opinion that John 8:58 deliberately echoes Yahweh's `I am' statements in Isaiah 40-55. The NWT obscures the parallels in Isaiah by rendering them `I am the same One' or `I am the same'; but the Hebrew in each case reads simply ANI.HU (literally, `I [am] he'), which the LXX renders as ego eimi (Isa. 41:4; 43:10; 46:4; 52:6; compare with Deut. 32:39)." (Bowman, R.M., Jr., 1989, "The Jehovah's Witnesses, Jesus Christ, and the Gospel of John," Baker: Grand Rapids MI, Reprinted, 1995, p.120).

"Jesus Claimed to Be Yahweh. Yahweh (YHWH; sometimes appearing in English translations as `Jehovah' or in small capital letters as `LORD') is the special name given by God for himself in the Old Testament. It is the name revealed to Moses in Exodus 3:14, when God said, `I AM WHO I AM.' Other titles for God may be used of humans, such as Adonai ('Lord') in Gen. 18:12, or false gods, such as elohim ('gods') in Deut. 6:14. Yahweh, however, only refers to the one true God. No other person or thing was to be worshiped or served (Exod. 20:5), and his name and glory were not to be given to another. Isaiah wrote, `This is what the LORD says.... I am the first, and I am the last; apart from me there is no God' (Isa. 44:6) and, `I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another, or my praise to idols' (42:8). Jesus claimed to be Yahweh. He prayed, `And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was' (John 17:5). But Yahweh of the Old Testament said, `my glory will I not give to another' (Isa. 42:8). Jesus also declared, `I am the first and the last' (Rev. 1:17)- precisely the words used by Jehovah in Isaiah 42:8. He said, `I am the good shepherd' (John 10:11), but the Old Testament said, `Yahweh is my shepherd' (Ps. 23:1). Further, Jesus claimed to be the judge of all people (Matt. 25:31f.; John 5:27f.), but Joel quotes Jehovah as saying, `for there I will sit to judge all the nations on every side' (Joel 3:12). Likewise, Jesus spoke of himself as the `bridegroom' (Matt. 25:1) while the Old Testament identifies Jehovah in this way (Isa. 62:5; Hos. 2:16). While the Psalmist declares, `The LORD is my light' (Ps. 27:1), Jesus said, `I am the light of the world' (John 8:12). Perhaps the strongest claim Jesus made to be Yahweh is in John 8:58, where he says, `Before Abraham was, I am.' This statement claims not only existence before Abraham, but equality with the `I AM' of Exodus 3:14. The Jews around him clearly understood his meaning and picked up stones to kill him for blaspheming (cf. John 8:58 and 10:31-33). The same claim is made in Mark 14:62 and John 18:5-6." (Geisler, N.L., 1999, "Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics," Baker Books: Grand Rapids MI, p.129. Emphasis original).

"John 8:58, `Jesus said unto them ... Before Abraham was [born], I am' (KJV). In comparing this with the Septuagint translation of Exodus 3:14 and Isaiah 43:10-13, we find that the translation is identical. In Exodus 3:14, Jehovah, speaking to Moses, said, `I AM,' which is synonymous with God. Jesus literally said to them, `I AM Jehovah' (I AM), and it is clear that they understood Him to mean just that; for they attempted, as the next verse reveals, to stone Him. Hebrew law on this point states five cases in which stoning was legal, and bear in mind that the Jews were legalists. Those cases were: (1) Having a familiar spirit, Leviticus 20:27; (2) Cursing (blasphemy), Leviticus 24:10-23; (3) False prophets who lead to idolatry, Deuteronomy 13:5-10; (4) Stubborn son, Deuteronomy 21:18-21; and (5) Adultery and rape, Deuteronomy 22:21-24 and Leviticus 20:10. Now, the only legal ground the Jews had for stoning Christ (and actually they had none at all) was the second violation, namely, blasphemy." (Martin, W.R. & Klann, N., 1953, "Jehovah of the Watchtower," Bethany House Publishers: Bloomington MN, Reprinted, 1981, p.52).

"The real problem [for Jehovah's Witnesses] in the verse [John 8:58] is the verb Ego Eimi. Dr. Robertson, who is quoted as authoritative by the NWT (p. 775), states that eimi is `absolute.' [Robertson, A.T., "Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research," B&H Publishing, 1947, p.768] This means there is no predicate expressed with it. This usage occurs four times (Jn 8:24, 58; 13:19; 18:5). In these places, the term is the same used by the Septuagint at Deuteronomy 32:39; Isaiah 43:10; and 46:4, to render the Hebrew phrase `I (am) He.' The phrase occurs only where Jehovah's Lordship is reiterated. The phrase then is a claim to full and equal deity. The incorrect and rude rendering of the NWT only serves to illustrate the difficulty of evading the meaning of the phrase and the context. The meaning of the phrase in the sense of full deity is especially clear at John 13:19, where Jesus says that He has told them things before they came to pass, that when they do come to pass the disciples may believe that Ego Eimi. (I AM). Jehovah is the only one who knows the future as a present fact. Jesus is telling them beforehand that when it does come to pass in the future, they may know that `I AM' (Ego Eimi), that He is Jehovah!" (Martin & Klann, 1953, p.53).

"Psalm 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. (KJV) Jehovah's Witnesses ... open their New World Translation and read the same verse: `The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is... .' They go on to argue (1) that the New World Translation is a superior Bible to use, because it does not have the Lord talking to himself; and (2) that the Lord Jesus must be a mere created being, since Jehovah God is addressing a person distinct from himself. To answer the first argument, it is only necessary to look at the text more closely. It does not say that `the Lord' was talking to `the Lord.' Most translations render the Hebrew tetragrammaton YHWH as `the LORD' (all capital letters), who is talking to the psalmist's `Lord' (both capital and small letters), the Messiah. .... Knowledgeable Christians who read this verse will grasp that God the Father is speaking to the Son. The second Witness argument-that Jesus cannot be God because `the LORD' spoke to him- is also a faulty one. The New Testament records many conversations between Jesus and the Father, but this does not disprove the deity of Christ. The Bible reveals that the Father is God (John 6:27, etc.) and that the Son is God (Isa. 9:6, John 20:28, etc.), yet there is only one God (1 Cor. 8:4)." (Reed, D.A., 1986, "Jehovah's Witnesses Answered Verse by Verse," Baker: Grand Rapids MI, Thirty-first printing, 2006, pp.35-36).

"In explaining to Witnesses the fact that Psalm 110 shows God, the Father in heaven, talking to the Son (also God) upon the earth, it may help to invite them to turn to Genesis 18 and 19 in their own New World Translation. There it says that `Jehovah appeared to him' [Abraham] as `three men' or angels (18:1-2). Abraham addressed the three as `Jehovah' (18:3). Two of them left Abraham and went toward the city of Sodom, but Abraham continued to address the remaining individual as `Jehovah' (18:22, 19:1). When the other two reached Sodom and spoke with Abraham's relative Lot, he addressed the two of them as `Jehovah' (19:18). And, when the city of Sodom was destroyed, the New World Translation says at Genesis 19:24: `Then Jehovah made it rain sulphur and fire from Jehovah, from the heavens ... .' So, unless the Witnesses want to claim that there is more than one Jehovah, they will have to admit that God can be in more than one place at the same time, and that he can hold simultaneous conversations with different people in different places. This should make it easier for them to grasp that the Father can talk to the Son, without calling into question the deity of Christ." (Reed, 1986, pp.36-37).

"Matthew 6:9 `You must pray, then, this way: "Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified."' NWT) Jehovah's Witnesses point out that God's name must be sanctified, and thus they `prove' that we must use the name Jehovah, in order for our prayers to be heard by God. But is that what Jesus taught? Did he begin his own prayers with the expression `Jehovah God,' as the Witnesses do? Not at all! While expressing concern in the prayer that God's name be sanctified or hallowed (treated as sacred or holy), Jesus taught his disciples to pray to `our Father,' not to `Jehovah God.' He said, `You must pray, then, this way: "Our Father... ."' Many of Jesus' own personal prayers are also recorded in the Bible, and in these he sets the same example: `Father, I thank you...' (John 11:41, NWT). `Abba, Father, all things are possible to you...' (Mark 14:36, NWT). `Father, the hour has come ...' (John 17:1, NWT). .... It is obvious that Jesus' words at Matthew 6:9 definitely do not teach a need to use the name Jehovah in prayer." (Reed, 1986, pp.52-53).

"Prayer The Watchtower Society has taught its followers that they must address all their prayers to `Jehovah God,' using this modern transliteration of the ancient Hebrew Tetragrammaton. (You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth, pages 44 and 228) However, is that what Jesus taught? The four Gospels record sufficient details of Jesus' earthly life for us to follow Him as our exemplar in the matter of prayer. Many of Jesus' prayers are recorded. Did He pray to `Jehovah God?' No, the pattern Jesus set is this: `Abba, Father, all things are possible to you.' - Mark 14:36 NWT. `Father, I thank you.' - John 11:41 NWT. `Father, the hour has...' - John 17:1 NWT. `You must pray, then, this way: 'Our Father...' - Matthew 6:9 NWT. The pattern Jesus set was to address God as `Father.' In fact, even the New World Translation does not contain any examples of Christ praying to `Jehovah'-in spite of the fact that the name `Jehovah' is inserted by the translators in hundreds of verses." (Reed, D.A., 1996, "Answering Jehovah's Witnesses: Subject by Subject," Baker: Grand Rapids MI, Second printing, 1998, p.182-183).

"Refuge in the Son (Psalm 2) In his excellent volume, Christology of the Old Testament, E. W. Hengstenberg soundly demonstrates that Psalm 2 is a messianic psalm-that is, it is a psalm that deals with the Messiah, Jesus Christ. In this psalm, we find a reference to Christ's acting in the role of Savior. The psalmist writes: `Serve the LORD with fear and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry and you be destroyed in your way, for his wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him' (Ps. 2:11-12, italics added). Hengstenberg provides convincing evidence that the `Son' in this verse is not a reference to an earthly king, as some have supposed, but is a reference to the second person of the Trinity, Jesus Christ." (Rhodes, R., "Christ Before the Manger: The Life and Times of the Preincarnate Christ," Baker: Grand Rapids MI, 1992, pp.140-141).

"Jesus Is Yahweh ... The Septuagint provides us with additional insights on Christ's identity as Yahweh. The Septuagint is a Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament that dates prior to the birth of Christ. It renders the Hebrew phrase for `I AM' (God's name) in Exodus 3:14 as ego eimi. On a number of occasions in the Greek New Testament, Jesus used this term as a way of identifying Himself as God. For example, in John 8:24 (NASB) Jesus declared, `Unless you believe that I am [I AM or ego eimi] He, you shall die in your sins.' The original Greek text for this verse does not have the word he. The verse is literally, `If you do not believe that I AM, you shall die in your sins.'" (Rhodes, 1993, "Reasoning from the Scriptures with the Jehovah's Witnesses," Harvest House: Eugene OR, Reprinted, 2006, pp.62-63).

"Psalm 110:1-Jehovah and `My Lord'. ... Psalm 110:1 in the New World Translation reads, `The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: `Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet' (emphasis added). The Jehovah's Witnesses say that since Jehovah is speaking in this verse, and since the `Lord' is a distinct person from Jehovah, then Jesus must not be God Almighty. Reasoning from the Scriptures explains that in Matthew 22:41-45 Jesus claims that He Himself is the `Lord' referred to by David in this psalm. They therefore conclude that Jesus is not Jehovah, but is the one to whom Jehovah's words were spoken. ["Reasoning from the Scriptures," 1989, p.198] ... This verse makes perfect sense within the scope of trinitarian theology. In the broader context of Matthew 22:41-46, we find Christ `putting the Pharisees into a corner' by asking them a question relating to the person of the Messiah. He asked, `Whose son is he?' (Matthew 22:42). They responded, `The Son of David.' Their answer was correct since the Old Testament thoroughly established the Davidic lineage of the Messiah (2 Samuel 7:14). But their answer was also incomplete. Scripture not only teaches that the Messiah would be the Son of David in terms of His humanity, it also teaches that He is God-and it is the latter fact that Christ wanted the Pharisees to acknowledge. Christ, of course, anticipated the Pharisees' half-answer. That's why in the next verse He quoted a Davidic psalm: `The LORD says to my Lord: `Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet' (Matthew 22:43; cf. Psalm 110:1). Now, the words `my Lord' are a reference to David's Messiah. This divine Messiah is invited to sit at the right hand of `the LORD' (God the Father). Here we have the first person of the Trinity speaking to the second person of the Trinity. [Reymond, R.L., "Jesus. Divine Messiah," Presbyterian & Reformed: Phillipsburg NJ, 1990, p.105]" (Rhodes, 1993, pp.161-162).

"[Jn 8:]24. For except ye believe (ean gar me pisteusete). Negative condition of third class with ean me and ingressive aorist active subjunctive of pisteuo, `For unless ye come to believe.' That I am he (hoti ego eimi). Indirect discourse, but with no word in the predicate after the copula eimi. Jesus can mean either `that I am from above' (verse 23), `that I am the one sent from the Father or the Messiah' (7:18, 28), `that I am the Light of the World' (8:12), `that I am the Deliverer from the bondage of sin' (8:28, 31f., 36), `that I am' without supplying a predicate in the absolute sense as the Jews (Deut. 32:39) used the language of Jehovah (cf. Isa. 43:10 where the very words occur hina pisteusete - hoti ego eimi). The phrase ego eimi occurs three times here (8:24, 28, 58) and also in 13:19. Jesus seems to claim absolute divine being as in 8:58." (Robertson, A.T., 1932, "Word Pictures in the New Testament: Volume V: The Fourth Gospel & the Epistle to the Hebrews," Broadman Press: Nashville TN, p.146).

"[Jn 8:]58. Before Abraham was (prin Abraam genesthai). Usual idiom with prin in positive sentence with infinitive (second aorist middle of ginomai) and the accusative of general reference, `before coming as to Abraham,' `before Abraham came into existence or was born.' I am (ego eimi). Undoubtedly here Jesus claims eternal existence with the absolute phrase used of God. The contrast between genesthai (entrance into existence of Abraham) and eimi (timeless being) is complete. See the same contrast between en in 1:1 and egeneto in 1:14. See the contrast also in Psa. 90:2 between God (ei, art) and the mountains (genethenai). See the same use of eimi in John 6:20; 9:9; 8:24, 28; 18:6." (Robertson, 1932, pp.158-159).

"Psalm 2 is properly classified as a Messianic psalm because of the usage of it in the New Testament. This psalm is quoted seven times by the apostles, and in each instance it is applied to the Messiah. [Acts 4:24-28; 13:33; Heb. 1:5; 5:5; Rev. 2:27; 12:5; 19:15] The Church Fathers regarded the psalm as Messianic as did Jewish expositors even after the Jews' rejection of Jesus, which might have tempted them to seek another interpretation. It is thus clear who the central figure and subject of this psalm is. The king who in this psalm is the object of fiercest hostility from man and the highest honors from God was not David himself, but the Messiah, he in whom prophecy and history of the old world were to find their goal. ... Psalm 2 pictures God's anointed king ruling upon Mt. Zion in spite of the efforts of Gentile rulers to overthrow him. What historical background, if any, prompted the writing of this psalm cannot be determined. ... The psalm is personal Messianic prophecy. The New Testament so interprets it (Acts 4:25-27; 13:33). The titles anointed one (Christ) and son of God which are used in this psalm were applied by the Jews of Jesus' day to the coming Redeemer (John 4:25; 1:49). Taken in its most literal sense the psalm fits perfectly with what is known of the life and ministry of Jesus of Nazareth." (Smith, J.E., 1993, "What the Bible Teaches About the Promised Messiah: An In-depth Study of 73 Key Old Testament Prophesies About the Messiah," Thomas Nelson Inc: Nashville TN, pp.154-155).

"Not that one literally seals the Bible but that he could become responsible for its continuing as a sealed book if he did not offer people Bible-study aids and call back and help them to gain understanding. Why is this so? Because the Bible is an organization book. It was produced by God's spirit bearing along men of faith who were, every last one of them, associated with God's organization-either the typical or the Christian organization. Jehovah is a God of unity and harmony. He wants his earthly servants united, and so he has made understanding the Bible today dependent upon associating with his organization, even as in the days of Jesus and his apostles only those who came in touch with God's organization received an understanding of the Scriptures." ("The Bible Spread by Jehovah's Witnesses," The Watchtower, October 1, 1960, p.668).

"From time to time, there have arisen from among the ranks of Jehovah's people those who, like the original Satan, have adopted an independent, faultfinding attitude. They do not want to serve `shoulder to shoulder' with the worldwide brotherhood. (Compare Ephesians 2:19-22.) Rather, they present a `stubborn shoulder' to Jehovah's words. (Zech. 7:11, 12) Reviling the pattern of the `pure language' that Jehovah has so graciously taught his people over the past century, these haughty ones try to draw the `sheep' away from the one international `flock' that Jesus has gathered in the earth. (John 10:7-10, 16) They try to sow doubts and to separate unsuspecting ones from the bounteous `table' of spiritual food spread at the Kingdom Halls of Jehovah's Witnesses, where truly there is `nothing lacking.' (Ps. 23:1-6) They say that it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home. But, strangely, through such `Bible reading,' they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by Christendom's clergy were teaching 100 years ago, and some have even returned to celebrating Christendom's festivals again, such as the Roman Saturnalia of December 25!" ("Serving Jehovah `Shoulder to Shoulder'," The Watchtower, August 15, 1981, pp.28-29, p.29).

"No matter where we may live on earth, God's Word continues to serve as a light to our path and a lamp to our roadway as to our conduct and beliefs. (Ps. 119:105) But Jehovah God has also provided his visible organization, his `faithful and discreet slave,' made up of spirit-anointed ones, to help Christians in all nations to understand and apply properly the Bible in their lives. Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using, we will not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do.-Compare Acts 8:30-40." ("The Path of the Righteous Does Keep Getting Brighter," The Watchtower, December 1, 1981, pp.26-31, p.27).

"Consider some of the other `twisted things' used to mislead God's people today. On occasion opposers will question the various teachings that Jehovah's people hold in common. Often this becomes a debate about words, just as it was in the first century. (1 Timothy 6:3, 4) They may also question the need for an organization to direct the minds of God's people. Their view is, God's spirit can direct individuals without some central, organized body of men giving direction. They will declare that all one needs to do is to read the Bible. But Christendom has been reading the Bible for centuries. And look at the indistinct trumpet call coming from Christendom today! See the confusion and misunderstanding as to the true message contained in God's Word! What a contrast this is to the foretold peace and unity among true Christians who not only read the Bible but search out and zealously apply its teachings!-Ephesians 4:3-6." ("What Is Our Position Toward Opposers of the Truth?," The Watchtower, March 1, 1983, pp.21-26, p.25).