Friday, March 13, 2009

Re: Is Jesus Jehovah? Please answer the following #3

grandpa len

Continued from my "Re: Is Jesus Jehovah? Please answer the following #2" with this the third part of my

[Left: Ron Rhodes' comprehensive, 437-page, "Reasoning from the Scriptures with the Jehovah's Witnesses" (1993). See quotes below from this and other Christian books responding to the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society's false claims.]

four-part response to your series of questions in a comment under my post, "Watchtower Errors by Bible verse: Index." Again, your words are bold to distinguish them from mine.

----- Original Message -----
From: grandpa len
To: Stephen E. Jones
Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 10:29 AM
Subject: [Jesus is Jehovah!] New comment on Watchtower Errors by Bible verse: Index.

>on whose right hand does he sit?

"God" the Father (not "Jehovah" (Gk. kurios "Lord"):

Mk 16:19 So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken unto them, was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.

Ac 2:33 Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear.

Ac 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Ac 7:56 and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God.

Rom 8:34 who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Eph 1:20 which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and made him to sit at his [God's] right hand in the heavenly places,

Col 3:1 If then ye were raised together with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated on the right hand of God.

Heb 10:12 but he, when he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

1Pet 3:22 who is one the right hand of God, having gone into heaven; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

See also the following synonyms for "God":

Mt 26:64 Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.

Mk 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.

Lk 22:69 But from henceforth shall the Son of man be seated at the right hand of the power of God.

Heb 1:3 who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Heb 8:1 Now in the things which we are saying the chief point is this: We have such a high priest, who sat down on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,

Heb 12:2 looking unto Jesus the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising shame, and hath sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

The only references to Jesus being at the right hand of "Jehovah" (i.e. Gk. kurios "Lord") is when it is a quote of:

Ps 110:1 Jehovah saith unto my Lord [Heb. adoni], Sit thou at my right hand, Until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

as follows:

Mt 22:44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Till I put thine enemies underneath thy feet?

Mk 12:36 David himself said in the Holy Spirit, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Till I make thine enemies the footstool of thy feet.

Lk 20:42 For David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Ac 2:34 For David ascended not into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

and one that does not actually mention "the Lord" or "my Lord":

Heb 1:13 But of which of the angels hath he said at any time, Sit thou on my right hand, Till I make thine enemies the footstool of thy feet?

But this is only a problem to Jehovah's Witnesses with their preconceived philosophical apriori Unitarian view of God. It is no problem at all for Christians with their Bible-based Trinitarian view of God, the answer being that this is Jehovah the Father talking to Jehovah the Son:

"Psalm 110:1 ... Jehovah's Witnesses ... argue ... that the Lord Jesus must be a mere created being, since Jehovah God is addressing a person distinct from himself. ... Knowledgeable Christians who read this verse will grasp that God the Father is speaking to the Son. " (Reed, 1986, pp.35-36).

"... Psalm 110 shows God, the Father in heaven, talking to the Son (also God) upon the earth." (Reed, 1986, pp.36-37).

"Psalm 110:1-Jehovah and `My Lord'. ... This verse makes perfect sense within the scope of trinitarian theology. .... Scripture not only teaches that the Messiah would be the Son of David in terms of His humanity, it also teaches that He is God ... Here we have the first person of the Trinity speaking to the second person of the Trinity." (Rhodes, 1993, pp.161-162).

>from whom did jesus receive authority, as noted in Mt 28?

It doesn't actually say in "Mt 28" from whom Jesus received "All authority ... in heaven and on earth":

Mt 28:18 And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth.

but presumably it was from God the Father, who is mentioned in the next verse (along with God the Son and God the Holy Spirit):

Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:

>is jesus a ventriloquist? if not, who was speaking at his baptism?

It was God the Father speaking to God the Son, with God the Holy Spirit descending on Him:

Mt 3:16-17 And Jesus when he was baptized, went up straightway from the water: and lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him; and lo, a voice out of the heavens, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Mk 1:10-11 And straightway coming up out of the water, he [Jesus] saw the heavens rent asunder, and the Spirit as a dove descending upon him: And a voice came out of the heavens, Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I am well pleased.

Lk 3:21-22 Now it came to pass, when all the people were baptized, that, Jesus also having been baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, and the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily form, as a dove, upon him, and a voice came out of heaven, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

The account of Jesus' baptism in Mt 3:16-17; Mk 1:10-11 & Lk 3:21-22, where the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are mentioned together in the same verse, is one of a number of such verses (e.g. Mt 28:19; 2Cor 13:14; 1Pet 1:2) that are evidence that the doctrine of the Trinity was held, albeit not in a fully developed form, by the New Testament writers:

"... Jesus' Baptism ... Matthew 3:16,17 by itself does not prove the doctrine of the Trinity. No Trinitarian bases his belief in the Trinity on a single verse, but rather on the accumulative evidence of the whole of Scripture ... Though Matthew 3:16,17 may not by itself prove the doctrine of the Trinity, it definitely supports the doctrine ..." (Rhodes, 1993, pp.241-243).

"One other common prooftext for the Trinity ... is ... Matt. 3:16-17 ... These ... do support the belief that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three persons, and also ... these three persons are God. But their chief importance ... is in demonstrating that the New Testament writers did think along `trinitarian' lines ... this trinitarian pattern ... pervades the New Testament." (Bowman, 1989, pp.126-127).

"... Christ ... At His baptism, the Holy Spirit descended like a dove, the Father spoke, and the Son was baptized. What further proof is needed to show a threefold unity? Compare the baptism of Christ (Mt 3:16-17) with the commission to preach in the threefold name of God (Mt 28:19), and the evidence is clear and undeniable." (Martin & Klann, 1953, "Jehovah of the Watchtower," pp.44-45).

"Certainly the best known example of the existence of three persons [in the Trinity] is the baptism of Jesus recorded in Matthew 3:16-17: .. Here the Father speaks from heaven, the Son is being baptized .. and the Spirit is descending as a dove ... There is no confusing of the persons at the baptism of the Lord Jesus." (White, 1998, "The Forgotten Trinity," pp.154-155).

>why is jesus spoken of as the head of the congregation just as jehovah is the head of the christ?

It does not say "Jehovah," but "the head of Christ is God," i.e. the Father:

1Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

But "the head of Christ is God" in the same sense that "the man" (i.e. "the husband") is "head of the woman" (i.e. "the wife"). That is, just as man and woman are equal in human nature, yet within the marriage relationship the husband has the role of head, so within the Trinity the Persons (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) are equal in God nature, but the Father has the role of head:

"1 Corinthians 11:3 ... the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (KJV) Jehovah's Witnesses use this verse, too, in their attempt to deny the deity of Christ. But this passage .. simply shows that the principle of headship applies. Within the human family, the head of the woman is the man. Does that mean that women are a lower form of life than men? ... Not at all! It is simply God's arrangement that someone act as head ... Likewise within the Godhead-the Father acts as head without diminishing the full deity of the Son." (Reed, 1986, pp.96-97).

"1 Corinthians 11:3-God, the Head of Christ? ... The Jehovah's Witnesses say that because Jehovah is said to be the head of Christ, then Christ cannot be God. ... 1 Corinthians 11:3 ... has to do with patterns of authority. Notice that Paul says the man is the head of the woman ... Even though men and women are completely equal in terms of their nature, there is nevertheless a functional hierarchy that exists between them. In the same way, Christ and the Father are utterly equal in their divine being ... even though Jesus is functionally under the Father's headship." (Rhodes, 1993, pp.140-141).

"... the submission of the Son to the Father ... is in no way inconsistent with the Trinity. ... For example, 1 Corinthians 11:3 [NASB] says that `God is the head of Christ.' But it also says that .. the man (that is, the husband) is the head of the woman (that is, his wife). Now, the Bible is very clear that men and women are equal in terms of nature ... Female submission, then, is a matter of function or position or role, not of essential superiority of the man over the woman. ..." (Bowman, 1989, pp.80-81).

>if jesus is god, who is the mediator? why pray thru him when we can pray TO him?

The Bible teaches that Jesus is both God (Mt 1:23; Jn 1:1; 20:28; Acts 20:28; Rom 9:5; Php 2:5-6, Col 2:9; Tit 2:13; Heb 1:8; 2Pet 1:1; 1Jn 5:20) and the mediator between God and man:

1Tim 2:5 For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus,

The Watchtower's claim that Jesus cannot be God because "a mediator is someone separate from those who need mediation," is obviously false. Apart from human mediators who do mediate between humans in dispute, on the Watchtower's `reasoning' Jesus could then not be man either. But because Jesus is both God and man, He is the only possible mediator between God and man:

"... The New World Translation renders 1 Timothy 2:5 .., `For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus ...' The Watchtower Society argues that because Jesus is said to mediate `between God and men,' it is clear that He cannot be viewed as God. ...`since by definition a mediator is someone separate from those who need mediation, it would be a contradiction for Jesus to be one entity with either of the parties he is trying to reconcile. ... The folly of this reasoning is at once evident in the fact that if Jesus as mediator cannot be God, then, by the same logic, He cannot be man either. ... The fact is, Jesus can mediate between God and man precisely because He is both God and man. ... Christ had to be both God and man to secure man's salvation ..." (Rhodes, 1993, pp.286-288).

Concluded in part #4.

Stephen E. Jones.
My other blogs: CreationEvolutionDesign & TheShroudofTurin


"The second point that ought to be made about the submission of the Son to the Father after his resurrection and ascension is that such submission is in no way inconsistent with the Trinity. ... An examination of the `subordinationist' texts cited by JWs bears out this point. For example, 1 Corinthians 11:3 [NASB] says that `God is the head of Christ.' But it also says that Christ is the head of every man, and that the man (that is, the husband) is the head of the woman (that is, his wife). Now, the Bible is very clear that men and women are equal in terms of nature; both are fully human, both are in God's image, and in Christ they are one (Gen. 1:26-28; Gal. 3:28). Female submission, then, is a matter of function or position or role, not of essential superiority of the man over the woman. As for Christ's being the head of every man, in context this also refers to a functional headship, not an essential superiority. And in one sense Christ is not essentially superior to men, since Christ himself is a man, as we have seen. Of course, in another sense Christ is far superior to men in essence, since Christ is also God." (Bowman, R.M., Jr., 1989, "Why You Should Believe in the Trinity: An Answer to Jehovah's Witnesses," Baker: Grand Rapids MI, Third printing, 1990, pp.80-81).

"One other common prooftext for the Trinity ought to be mentioned. When Jesus is baptized, the Holy Spirit symbolically descends on him as a dove, and the Father announces that Jesus is his Son (Matt. 3:16-17; see also Mark 1:10-11; Luke 3:21-22; John 1:32-34). The JW booklet [Should You Believe in the Trinity?] argues that the descent of the Spirit on Jesus at his baptism implies `that Jesus was not anointed by spirit until that time' (p. 23), but this is not said. Are we to believe that John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit from his mother's womb (Luke 1:15), while the Son of God was devoid of the Spirit until he was about thirty years old? Are we to believe that a mere human, which according to the Witnesses Jesus was, lived a sinless life for about thirty years without the help of the Holy Spirit? The fact is that the Holy Spirit's descent on Jesus was not for him to become actively present in Jesus' life for the first time, but to mark publicly the beginning of Jesus' ministry and manifest to the world that the Spirit was indeed on Jesus. These prooftexts, then, do support the belief that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three persons, and also lend some support-though probably not absolute proof-to the belief that these three persons are God. But their chief importance does not lie in their constituting isolated prooftexts for the Trinity as a complete doctrine. No one verse tells us everything about God. The importance of these texts is in demonstrating that the New Testament writers did think along `trinitarian' lines, without the formal vocabulary, of course, of later trinitarian theology. But it is not just in a few prooftexts that this threefoldness, this trinitarian pattern, is to be found. On the contrary, it pervades the New Testament." (Bowman, 1989, pp.126-127).

"Christians do not believe that the Trinity was incarnate in Christ and that they were `three in one' during Christ's ministry. Christ voluntarily limited Himself in His earthly body, but heaven was always open to Him. At His baptism, the Holy Spirit descended like a dove, the Father spoke, and the Son was baptized. What further proof is needed to show a threefold unity? Compare the baptism of Christ (Mt 3:16-17) with the commission to preach in the threefold name of God (Mt 28:19), and the evidence is clear and undeniable. Of course, it is not possible to fathom this great revelation completely, but this we do know: there is a unity of substance, not three gods, and that unity is one in every sense, which no reasonable person can doubt after surveying the evidence. When Jesus said, `My Father is greater than I,' He spoke the truth; for in the form of a servant (Phil 2:7) and as a man, the Son was subject to the Father willingly; but upon His resurrection and in the radiance of His glory (vv. 7-8), He showed forth His deity when He declared, `All authority is surrendered to me in heaven and in earth' (Mt 28:18); proof positive of His genuine nature and unity of substance. It is evident, then, that the Lord Jesus Christ was never inferior, spiritually speaking, to His Father during His sojourn on earth; and contrary to the view of Jehovah's Witnesses, even during the days of His flesh, there was no subordination of His essence, since He said that `all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father' (Jn 5:23, KJV)." (Martin, W.R. & Klann, N., 1953, "Jehovah of the Watchtower," Bethany House Publishers: Bloomington MN, Reprinted, 1974, pp.44-45).

"Psalm 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. (KJV) Jehovah's Witnesses ... open their New World Translation and read the same verse: `The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is... .' They go on to argue (1) that the New World Translation is a superior Bible to use, because it does not have the Lord talking to himself; and (2) that the Lord Jesus must be a mere created being, since Jehovah God is addressing a person distinct from himself. To answer the first argument, it is only necessary to look at the text more closely. It does not say that `the Lord' was talking to `the Lord.' Most translations render the Hebrew tetragrammaton YHWH as `the LORD' (all capital letters), who is talking to the psalmist's `Lord' (both capital and small letters), the Messiah. .... Knowledgeable Christians who read this verse will grasp that God the Father is speaking to the Son. The second Witness argument-that Jesus cannot be God because `the LORD' spoke to him- is also a faulty one. The New Testament records many conversations between Jesus and the Father, but this does not disprove the deity of Christ. The Bible reveals that the Father is God (John 6:27, etc.) and that the Son is God (Isa. 9:6, John 20:28, etc.), yet there is only one God (1 Cor. 8:4)." (Reed, D.A., 1986, "Jehovah's Witnesses Answered Verse by Verse," Baker: Grand Rapids MI, Thirty-first printing, 2006, pp.35-36).

"In explaining to Witnesses the fact that Psalm 110 shows God, the Father in heaven, talking to the Son (also God) upon the earth, it may help to invite them to turn to Genesis 18 and 19 in their own New World Translation. There it says that `Jehovah appeared to him' [Abraham] as `three men' or angels (18:1-2). Abraham addressed the three as `Jehovah' (18:3). Two of them left Abraham and went toward the city of Sodom, but Abraham continued to address the remaining individual as `Jehovah' (18:22, 19:1). When the other two reached Sodom and spoke with Abraham's relative Lot, he addressed the two of them as `Jehovah' (19:18). And, when the city of Sodom was destroyed, the New World Translation says at Genesis 19:24: `Then Jehovah made it rain sulphur and fire from Jehovah, from the heavens ... .' So, unless the Witnesses want to claim that there is more than one Jehovah, they will have to admit that God can be in more than one place at the same time, and that he can hold simultaneous conversations with different people in different places. This should make it easier for them to grasp that the Father can talk to the Son, without calling into question the deity of Christ." (Reed, 1986, pp.36-37).

"1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (KJV) Jehovah's Witnesses use this verse, too, in their attempt to deny the deity of Christ. But this passage does not support Watchtower doctrine that Christ was an angel created by God. It simply shows that the principle of headship applies. Within the human family, the head of the woman is the man. Does that mean that women are a lower form of life than men? Are women somehow inferior to men? Not at all! It is simply God's arrangement that someone act as head, and he assigned that role to the man. Likewise within the Godhead-the Father acts as head without diminishing the full deity of the Son." (Reed, 1986, pp.96-97).

"1 Corinthians 11:3-God, the Head of Christ? ... The New World Translation renders 1 Corinthians 11:3, "But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God" (emphasis added). The Jehovah's Witnesses say that because Jehovah is said to be the head of Christ, then Christ cannot be God. If Christ were God, then He would be the head. ... A close examination of 1 Corinthians 11:3 shows that it has nothing to do with inferiority or superiority of one person over another; rather, it has to do with patterns of authority. Notice that Paul says the man is the head of the woman, even though men and women are utterly equal in their essential being. The Bible clearly teaches that men and women are equal in terms of nature. They are both human and both are created in God's image (Genesis 1:26-28). They are also said to be one in Christ (Galatians 3:28). These verses, taken with 1 Corinthians 11:3, show us that equality of being and social hierarchy are not mutually exclusive. Even though men and women are completely equal in terms of their nature, there is nevertheless a functional hierarchy that exists between them. In the same way, Christ and the Father are utterly equal in their divine being (Jesus said, `I and the Father are one' [John 10:30]), even though Jesus is functionally under the Father's headship. There is no contradiction in affirming both an equality of being and a functional subordination among the Persons in the Godhead. Christ in His divine nature is fully equal to the Father, even though relationally (or functionally) He is subordinate or submissive to the Father, especially since becoming a man. So in no way does 1 Corinthians 11:3 imply that Jesus is less than God." (Rhodes, 1993, "Reasoning from the Scriptures with the Jehovah's Witnesses," Harvest House: Eugene OR, Reprinted, 2006, pp.140-141).

"Psalm 110:1-Jehovah and `My Lord'. ... Psalm 110:1 in the New World Translation reads, `The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: `Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet' (emphasis added). The Jehovah's Witnesses say that since Jehovah is speaking in this verse, and since the `Lord' is a distinct person from Jehovah, then Jesus must not be God Almighty. Reasoning from the Scriptures explains that in Matthew 22:41-45 Jesus claims that He Himself is the `Lord' referred to by David in this psalm. They therefore conclude that Jesus is not Jehovah, but is the one to whom Jehovah's words were spoken. ["Reasoning from the Scriptures," 1989, p.198] ... This verse makes perfect sense within the scope of trinitarian theology. In the broader context of Matthew 22:41-46, we find Christ `putting the Pharisees into a corner' by asking them a question relating to the person of the Messiah. He asked, `Whose son is he?' (Matthew 22:42). They responded, `The Son of David.' Their answer was correct since the Old Testament thoroughly established the Davidic lineage of the Messiah (2 Samuel 7:14). But their answer was also incomplete. Scripture not only teaches that the Messiah would be the Son of David in terms of His humanity, it also teaches that He is God-and it is the latter fact that Christ wanted the Pharisees to acknowledge. Christ, of course, anticipated the Pharisees' half-answer. That's why in the next verse He quoted a Davidic psalm: `The LORD says to my Lord: `Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet' (Matthew 22:43; cf. Psalm 110:1). Now, the words `my Lord' are a reference to David's Messiah. This divine Messiah is invited to sit at the right hand of `the LORD' (God the Father). Here we have the first person of the Trinity speaking to the second person of the Trinity. [Reymond, R.L., "Jesus. Divine Messiah," Presbyterian & Reformed: Phillipsburg NJ, 1990, p.105]" (Rhodes, 1993, pp.161-162).

"Matthew 3:16,17 - Jesus' Baptism ... The Watchtower Society argues that Matthew 3:16,17 does not prove that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one. The booklet Should You Believe in the Trinity? notes that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are mentioned together a number of times, but this does not make them one. Likewise, Peter, James, and John are mentioned together, but this does not make them one. [Ibid., p.23] Hence, Matthew 3:16,17 does not support the doctrine of the Trinity. ... As is true with 2 Corinthians 13:14, Matthew 3:16,17 by itself does not prove the doctrine of the Trinity. No Trinitarian bases his belief in the Trinity on a single verse, but rather on the accumulative evidence of the whole of Scripture. When Matthew 3:16,17 is considered with other passages, there can be no doubt that the doctrine of the Trinity is true. ... Though Matthew 3:16,17 may not by itself prove the doctrine of the Trinity, it definitely supports the doctrine. ... In view of those facts, we must conclude that when the Father and the Son are mentioned in Matthew 3:16,17, they are spoken of in terms of their eternal deity. This adds supportive evidence for the doctrine of the Trinity. ... Matthew 3:16,17 is an excellent support text for affirming the reality of the Trinity." (Rhodes, 1993, pp.241-243).

"1 Timothy 2:5 ... The New World Translation renders 1 Timothy 2:5 .., `For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus ...' The Watchtower Society argues that because Jesus is said to mediate `between God and men,' it is clear that He cannot be viewed as God. After all, `since by definition a mediator is someone separate from those who need mediation, it would be a contradiction for Jesus to be one entity with either of the parties he is trying to reconcile. That would be a pretending to be something he is not.' ["Should You Believe in the Trinity?" 1989, p.16] Their conclusion, then, is that Christ as a mediator cannot be viewed as God. How could Jesus mediate between God and man if He Himself was God? ... Is it true that because Jesus is a mediator between God and man, He cannot be God, since `by definition a mediator is someone separate from those who need mediation'? [Ibid] By no means! The folly of this reasoning is at once evident in the fact that if Jesus as mediator cannot be God, then, by the same logic, He cannot be man either. [Bowman, R.M., "Why You Should Believe in the Trinity," 1989, p.73] The fact is, Jesus can mediate between God and man precisely because He is both God and man. [Ibid] Indeed, humankind's redemption was completely dependent upon the human-divine union in Christ. If Christ the Redeemer had been only God, He could not have died, since God by His very nature cannot die. It was only as a man that Christ could represent humanity and die as a man. As God, however, Christ's death had infinite value sufficient to provide redemption for the sins of all people. Clearly, then, Christ had to be both God and man to secure man's salvation ..." (Rhodes, 1993, pp.286-288).

"From time to time, there have arisen from among the ranks of Jehovah's people those who, like the original Satan, have adopted an independent, faultfinding attitude. They do not want to serve `shoulder to shoulder' with the worldwide brotherhood. (Compare Ephesians 2:19-22.) Rather, they present a `stubborn shoulder' to Jehovah's words. (Zech. 7:11, 12) Reviling the pattern of the `pure language' that Jehovah has so graciously taught his people over the past century, these haughty ones try to draw the `sheep' away from the one international `flock' that Jesus has gathered in the earth. (John 10:7-10, 16) They try to sow doubts and to separate unsuspecting ones from the bounteous `table' of spiritual food spread at the Kingdom Halls of Jehovah's Witnesses, where truly there is `nothing lacking.' (Ps. 23:1-6) They say that it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home. But, strangely, through such `Bible reading,' they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by Christendom's clergy were teaching 100 years ago, and some have even returned to celebrating Christendom's festivals again, such as the Roman Saturnalia of December 25!" ("Serving Jehovah `Shoulder to Shoulder'," The Watchtower, August 15, 1981, pp.28-29, p.29).

"Certainly the best known example of the existence of three persons [in the Trinity] is the baptism of Jesus recorded in Matthew 3:16-17: After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, `This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.' Here the Father speaks from heaven, the Son is being baptized (and is again described as being the object of the Father's love ...), and the Spirit is descending as a dove. Jesus is not speaking to himself but is spoken to by the Father. There is no confusing of the persons at the baptism of the Lord Jesus." (White, J.R., 1998, "The Forgotten Trinity: Recovering the Heart of Christian Belief," Bethany House: Minneapolis MN, pp.154-155).

2 comments:

Daniel said...

You have got to be kidding me with that long-winded Trinitarian double speak. A “Bible based Trinitarian view of God”
Please point me to the term Trinity in the Bible. Please point me to comprehensive explanation of the Trinity in The Bible.
THEY DO NOT EXIST. (And who do you look to as explanation of the Trinity, Wikipedia. Truly an inspired source.) “>on whose right hand does he sit? "God" the Father (not "Jehovah" (Gk. kurios "Lord"):” Not Jehovah??? The Divine name appears almost 7,000 times in the Heb. Scriptures including Ps. 110:1. What are you talking about? The religions of Christendom have conveniently deleted The Divine Name from their Bibles. We don’t have a problem with Ps. 110:1, lets all read it together, “The utterance of JEHOVAH to my Lord is…”. (AS, Living Bible, Darby’s Bible, NWT) Sounds simple to me. Jehovah is talking to David’s Lord (Jesus). Only Trinitarian gobbledygook makes it hard to understand. “God The Holy Spirit”??? Can you quote one scripture where it says “God The Holy Spirit”??? Even the scriptures you cite don’t use that term. Matthew 3:16, 17 “What further proof is needed to show a threefold unity?” What proof does this offer??? That they’re mentioned together??? That’s the best you can do? Here’s a few for you:
Matthew 7:21-22 21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ Note the mention of the word Lord.
John 17:3-4 3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. Did Jesus call himself the Only True God? And my favorite:
Revelation 3:12 12 “‘The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine. If Jesus has a God, how can he be The Almighty God?
And there’s more…………

Stephen E. Jones said...

Daniel

>You have got to be kidding me with that long-winded Trinitarian double speak.

Thanks for your comment. Every one of your points can be easily answered from the Bible, and in fact I already have answered some of them in other posts to this blog.

But you have raised too many points for me to answer adequately in a comment. So I will reply to each of your points in a separate post or series of posts.

However, it may take some time as: 1) I have three different blogs and I am neglecting the other two [CreationEvolutionDesign and TheShroudofTurin]; 2) I have a backlog of separate post responses to be made to other comments to this blog; and 3) I have commenced university training to become a biology teacher, so I have far less time than I used to have, and even then I could not keep up!

Nevertheless, the topic of Jesus being Jehovah, and responding to those who deny this, especially Jehovah's Witnesses, is one I put a high priority on, so I will try to respond to your comment as soon as I can, perhaps in the April semester break.

Stephen E. Jones